No you liar no one used anyone as shields. The marines slaughtered 24 civillains; no weapons were found in the house and there were no insurgents. Next time try to know what the hell you are talking about.

You all say they did this like they are mindless killers. These marines are humans just like all, well most of us. The terrorist used the civillians as shields, and the marines just did their job.

"In Nov 2005 there were no innocents in the town of Haditha, and nearby Haqulania and Barwana".

Really? So you are saying that the children and old man in a wheelchair were not innocent? That they deserved to be murdered? Thank you for confirming what I already knew, that US marines in their blood-thirsty arrogance think that their actions are always justified no matter how horrific.

I also reject the term insurgents and terrorists. There were no Al Qaeda in Iraq before we invaded. May I remind you sir that the US marines have no business in Iraq and no business murdering civillians. They are not wanted there. There is no draft and the marines who go to occupy a country that never attacked us are there with no moral foundation. They do not have to go and following orders is no excuse for murder; go read the Nuremberg statutes and transcripts. No, I am not comparing the marines to the Germans in WWII, but conceptually the point is valid. Each soldier makes the "choice" to go and many soldiers of conscience have bravely refused willing to risk jail and worse for the courage of their convictions.

Those marines who slaughtered 24 unarmed civillians in Haditha were not fighting for our freedoms, they were not fighting for me. Their actions make my family less safe as their wanton bloodlust only served to recruit more real terrorists.

Thank you for your opinions, I respect your right to share them and I disagree.

I didn’t think you would answer the question.
For the record, I can’t stand Hanity and all the other talking point parrots that liter the airwaves.

I posed the question in response to your statement in reference to a Military Courts Martial being tried with a jury of Military members. By and large, Military NJP and courts system have a far better track record than the civilian court system. You have attempted to discredit this practice by proposing, I assume, that you would be in a better position to judge them. But you have no earthly concept of how you would react under anything remotely similar.

You are wrong; they were taking fire from homes in the area.
You have also attempted to discredit other posters in their presentation of the fact that there was an ongoing battle in other parts of Haditha that day as irrelevant when it is completely relevant. The town is tiny and what happens on one block directly affects the next block over.

In Nov 2005 there were no innocents in the town of Haditha, and nearby Haqulania and Barwana. They could be classified as ‘unwilling participants’ but not innocent. In 2005, the Haditha area was a hotly contested key area. Because of the Haditha dam and the resulting lake created by it, Haditha contained the 1st bridge south of Rhawa and was a key crossing point of the Euphrates River for foreign fighters entering Iraq form Syria. Until just after the operation they were involved in, the local populace was under firm control of insurgents with no local government or police force. They all knew when and where IED’s were placed and when they would be detonated with the full knowledge that Marines would be killed. Yet they refused to tell anyone, since they knew that cooperating with the Marines meant death to them and their family from the insurgents. A similar act anywhere else would net you an accessory to murder charge. The minute someone placed that IED near their homes, that person put their lives in jeopardy. It was placed in front of homes for the sole purpose of killing Marines and as an ancillary component, inflicting casualties on the neighboring civilians.

I really don’t expect my comments will in any way change your mind, if you are even able to step back long enough to contemplate them. You obviously have pursued this singular topic with vigor. What concerns me is your zeal and preoccupation with this topic. Yet after checking your posts I see no other such concern or repulsion at acts committed by the insurgents in Iraq who willfully ensure that civilians are targeted as a mater of course. Troubling you find it so easy to find fault with your own Countrymen. I for one always have and always will put my country and its citizens first.

Should SSgt Weyrich have restrained the squad? Maybe. But I wasn’t there that day and neither where you. Once you throw a fragmentation grenade into a room, you can no longer see what or who is in there and if the decision was made to clear with force, then you must follow on with automatic weapons fire. A lot of Marines were killed and wounded in that town in the proceeding before that day. The other squad members have been investigated and found innocent of any wrong doing, just because you don’t like the results doesn’t make you right.

We do agree on item however, war is a Hell. A concept you will never understand.

Miguel Terrazas was killed by a makeshift bomb while in a vehicle. The civillians the marines murdered were unarmed.

They had no reason to believe there were insurgents in that home and if they did they were proven wrong. There were no weapons or insurgents found among the 24 civillains murdered.

I do not believe the marines who are seeking to protect their own. I believe they are murderers.

John said:
"Can you imagine the horror and terror of a woman seeing her child's body splattered against the wall right before she died?"

Is that the chronology of what happened or are you just making stuff up again?

They had every reason to believe there were insurgents, or are you trying to say U.S. Lance Cpl. Miguel Terrazas, 20, of El Paso, Texas had a heart attack?

Allen there were no insurgents in those houses. The marines reacted in an unreasonable and criminal way to one of their own getting killed and took it out on the innocent civillians that lived in the neighborhood. How many times do I need to quote the marine squad leader Frank Weyrich before you blind defenders of murderers get it?

"Shoot first and ask questions later."

There were no weapons, no insurgents, no hostile gunfire, just normal men, women and children and an old man in a wheelchair. The marines under orders from Weyrick threw grenades into each room and burst in firing wantonly as they did. Can you imagine the horror and terror of a woman seeing her child's body splattered against the wall right before she died?

Your defense of these actions is despicable and one of the the reasons that we are no longer seen as a force for good in the world. Abu Graib, Haditha, the list of abuses is long.

Are all marines guilty. No, of course not. Many are honorable, decent soldiers doing what they think is right based on the lies told to them by their superiors. But, these marines in Haditha are murderers and should be held accountable. But they won't be; because they are being judged by the very men that sent them to war in the first place.

first of all,How do you tell the civilians from the enemy?The cowerdly insurgents hid be hind the civilians,waring the same clothing.who are the witnesess,The civilians?As soon as an insergent hides his weapon he is concidered a civilian.But let me tell you this;If you take a shot at me then hide your gun that doesn't change the fact that you shot at me!It only means your not going to shoot again untill I turn around.

I wear your ad hominem personal attacks like a badge of honor. Now go play in the traffic with all the other neocon garbage children. You are dismissed.

hey coward boy, were you there? no! and there you sit in your mom's basement with you pants down.
what a typical liberal coward.

I don't play baiting Sean Hannity games . . war is hell and unecessary, immoral wars are worse. The marines slaughtered women and kids; there was no fire coming from anywhere.

You still didn’t answer the question. What do you do?

There was no fire coming from that house. None, zero. Unarmed civillains. More excuses from bloodthirsty killers that just love to kill.

that's two questions

I just have one question for John,
If I instigate the exchange and fire at you first, knowing that women and children are in the home, and in the ensuing battle, they are killed, do I bare any responsibility, or is the responsibility of their death yours alone?
And since I have fired on you first, you would have no idea who is in the house with me. So, do you fire back?

hey john(creepy avatar guy)have you ever had a job?
i like to goof on the next guy as much as anybody, but i don't pick on people for no reason, especially
if they're not even around to defend themselves. you are an elitist coward. someday you will see the error of your ways, and i will help you, because that's the kind of person a true american is.

"Like so many right-wing koolaid drinkers your cognitive abilities have diminished to the point where I would seriously recommend you lock the doors on your double-wide for the protection of all Mississippians."

You can't escape your bigotry can you? You are a stunning example of the elitist attitude from which you suffer.

No shit boy, are you late for therapy. I would guess a good 20 to 30 years late. It must be peachy to be you, so "evolved", so "enlightened", so "complete".

You are one scared little man. Keep puffing up your chest if that makes you feel better, but when you look in the mirror it's still the pathetic you.

Then, as you are well aware; when in a known residential area that has many women and children living there, where there is no gunfire coming from the house, you set up a barrier around the house in question and determine whether or not there are hostiles inside that house.

Weyrich admitts he didn't do this.

Why are you implying all owners of a double-wide are "right wing coolaid drinkers"?

What did those home owners ever do to you?

You said:
"I never said above the troops were "cowards" and "all bad people"."

Yes you did. If the "Good" and "Courageous" ones stayed home (thus earning your respect), then in your opinion the ones that went are bad cowards and unworthy of your respect.

I can't judge who "cares" more, none of this should be some "who's is bigger" pissing contest so will leave that at that.

Aside from having to stiffle my laughter at your references to "your party"... as if I'm a Repbulican or something (just because I'm voting for Ron Paul doesn't make me a Republican, does it?), how did they know they were unarmed before they went in and right after an ambush that matched intelligence at the time?
We know there are women and children shooters and we know the "terrorists" hide behind and attempt to blend with the civilians (and we've seen civilians help them as well as successfully fight them off).

Like so many right-wing koolaid drinkers your cognitive abilities have diminished to the point where I would seriously recommend you lock the doors on your double-wide for the protection of all Mississippians.

I never said above the troops were "cowards" and "all bad people". You can lie and put words in people's mouths, but your comments then become meaningless.

I would warrant that I care for the troops far more than yo do. I don't send them to die and be maimed like your party does, I don't send them to Iraq with no body armor and poorly reinforced Humveees like your party does, I don't give them poisoned water that you paid Haliburton $60 million dollars for like your party does, I don't put the wounded in roach and rat infested hospitals when they return like your party does . . . why do you hate and despise the troops so much? I want them to live!

As to your last question, as to whether were any (even hypothetical) mitigating circumstances that I would accept ... my answer is that if gunfire was coming from those men and those rooms in that house then yes I would understand that the fog of war might have caused innocent civillians to be killed.

But that is not what the circumstances were, even by the admission of the marines. I saw Frank Weyrich on 60 Minutes. There were no weapons in the house, the men in the car were unarmed and fleeing. Weyrich said so!

The reality is those marines slaughtered 24 innocent civillains, they ended their lives forever, shredding the boddies of small children as their mothers and grandfather watched in horror as they pleaded for their lives with their hands in the air. They threw grenades in those rooms and then sprayed machine gun fire within until every last person was dead; without knowing who they killed. That is a direct violation of the rules of engagement; there was no enemy established. Frank Wuterich admitted he shot some of the victims and he admitted telling his men to "shoot first and ask questions later."

So go peddle your jingoistic, war-loving lies to someone who doesn't know the facts, I do. There are many honorable marines as I said in my original post above. Many marinesput in an untenible, horrible situation who do the right thing with honor.

The Haditha marines are not among those marines. They acted like blood-thirsty executioners and the knowledge of their actions spread throughout the world, again emboldening etrrorists, worseningh public opinion of the US and serving as yet another recruitment tool for terrorists.

The Haditha marines responsible, no matter what rank, deserve to spend the rest of their lives in jail. They won't, because the marines are being tried by their own; by the very men who taught them to kill in the first place; by lunatics like
Lt. General John Mattis.

There will be no justice; I expect none.

john(creepy avatar guy)is a poster boy for all that is wrong with this country. these crazy hate america first people, don't know how great they have it.

John said:
"it eventually is the individual's responsibilty as to what they do or don't do. I am following orders does not wash as Nuremberg proved."

John also said:
"I would have more respect for them if they refused to go to Iraq, like so many good men and women have; risking jail and worse due to their incredible courage"

So I wonder:
Since he thinks the troops on the ground in Iraq are all bad people and unworthy cowards (probably all criminal if he goes the illegal war route), when is he going to stop the "I support the troops" masquerade?

As if there were Any (even hypothetical) mitigating circumstances he would accept...

i think festertime and john(the creepy avatar boy)play with doll's to much

Goodnight Fes, you did well.

I am a little drunk. good night

Wooddunce, I don't even consider him an American. Just another traitor, a war-loving fanatical right-wing kool-aid drinker.

If the marines weren't in Iraq they wouldn't be getting shot at would they no woodshmuck? I would warrant Iraqis shooting at an invading occupying force could just as easily be called the resistance or freedom fighters as insurgents.

The fact remains that 24 unarmed, innocent civillians were murdered by the bloodthirsty, insane marines seeking to avenge the death of one of their buddies. What gives the marines the right to kick people's doors down, throw in grenades and shoot everyone without identifying who they are?

You want to know my sources? How about the marines themselves. Squad leader Frank Wuterich said he shot some of the victims and he admitted telling his men to "shoot first and ask questions later."
There's your source.

Want another source? How about the marines again! The original Marine Corps report on the incident claimed that all the Iraqi deaths resulted from a bomb (a lie) and an exchange of gunfire with insurgents (another lie). We know it because reporters began challenging inconsistencies between eyewitness Iraqi accounts and the Marine Corps version.

Hey woodscum; why do you hate your country little, little man?

When pick-a-country's army comes to your town,whatcha gonna do, if you don't get immediately *liberated*? Will you resist? Will you help the attackers? Will you tell them where *Jesse* is? Or will you fight like hell for your family and friends, for your home? ..for your truck, for your dog?
We're shooting trucks and dogs, my friend. Think about that.

Sober up, fester.
btw, Hannity don't know spit.
Nice guy, not up to speed.
Knows more than you or Johnny sidestep, though.

fester, I don't need to join you. I've followed every single development since Murtha slandered the Marines of 3/1 Kilo.
I'll be happy to share my sources, but I'm waiting for Johnny to share his.

How can you know the "routine" of an *insurgent*? Well.. Hannity told me. That's how it is. And those people who question any of this Killin' are invested in defeat. ,and should be cussed at from mom's basement.
Are any of you warmonger citizens doin' this from Fox's basement?
I don't have a basement. When the tornado comes, I'll go to the neighbor's. And they'll let me in, cause I'm a relatively nice person. And I'll bring beer. And we won't be rooting for death. We'll be worried about the horrible shit going on outside. There'll be no reach-arounds. Maybe, if I go to the neighbor on the south? Either side, they won't be pro-tornado.

No one knows for sure if the civilians were killed before or after. Regardless, when someone's shooting at you from inside a house, that house and everything in it is hostile.
The houses that did not have shooters did not have anyone killed in them.
The houses that had shooters got fragged with grenades followed by small arms fire until the threat was neutralized.
You don't want women and kids killed, don't fire on Marines and then run into a house full of them and hide amongst them.
Funny how little johnnie doesn't complain about the houses just a block over that had the exact same circumstances, sans IED, and instead of going into the houses to try to differentiate the insurgents from the civilians, bombs were dropped, disintegrating the house and almost everyone in them.
That was after grenades were thrown at Marines from the rooftop - they throw grenades from the roof, we drop 500lb bombs on the roof.
Peace Through Superior Firepower
Oh johnny boy, ready to name your sources yet?

we shoot those human shields, woodhead. ..unless I'm wrong. I'm looking into that. Join me.

..oh, yeah , the known guys in the white car, we've been lookin' for them.
I've been reading these comments for too many hours since last Thursday, and I'm seeing Goober after Goeble-guy huff and puff at the messenger. How does recognizing that the emperor has no clothes (read that one) put me on a hate-wagon?
What is more hateful than bombing people? ..than attacking cities? JFC
There are not two sides to every story. Imagine you and one of your asshole friends sitting there arguing. One of you might be wrong. I'm guessing you're both wrong. Boom, a third side. Don't we owe it to ourselves to check if we might be all full of shit and stuff?

*What?*

john, sounds like he's gotten that reach around a time or 2 from you. much has been written about his service and for the most part i respect that service. but there are countless people in our military that are not worthy or have ulterior motives for being there, like a kerry and a mertha. both disgraces.

Congressman Murtha is so well-respected for his first-hand knowledge of military and defense issues that he has been a trusted adviser to presidents of both parties on military and defense issues and is one of the most effective advocates for the national defense in the country. He is the Chairman of the Defense Appropriations Subcommittee, a Vietnam combat veteran and a retired Marine Corps colonel with 37 years of service, a rare combination of experience that enables him to understand defense and military operations from every perspective.

He learned about military service from the bottom up, beginning as a raw recruit when he left Washington and Jefferson College in 1952 to join the Marines out of a growing sense of obligation to his country during the Korean War. There he earned the American Spirit Honor Medal, awarded to fewer than one in 10,000 recruits. He rose through the ranks to become a drill instructor at Parris Island and was selected for Officer Candidate School at Quantico, Virginia. He then was assigned to the Second Marine Division, Camp Lejeune, North Carolina. In 1959, Captain Murtha took command of the 34th Special Infantry Company, Marine Corps Reserves, in Johnstown. He remained in the Reserves after his discharge from active duty until he volunteered for Vietnam in 1966-67, where he served as the S-2 intelligence officer for the 1st Battalion, 1st Marine Regiment, 1st Marine Division and received the Bronze Star with Combat "V", two Purple Hearts and the Vietnamese Cross of Gallantry.

He remained in the Reserves until his retirement. This first-hand knowledge of military and defense issues has made him a trusted adviser to presidents of both parties and one of the most effective advocates for the national defense in Washington. At the request of Presidents and Speakers of the House, he served as chairman of delegations monitoring elections in the Philippines, El Salvador, Panama and Bosnia.

He was awarded the Navy Distinguished Service Medal by the Marine Corps Commandant when he retired from the Marines.

john, i doubt that you could find a single true patriot, that would support the likes of you, maybe murtha, that fat traitor would gladly give you a reach around.

Woodenhead - Captain Dismore the intelligence officer was not there; that was fabricated to try and provide cover for those criminal thugs who murdered women and kids.! Can you imagine that you are supporting men that machine gunned little children to death? You are reprehensible and so are your war loving kind. You are a traitor to the ideals this country was founded upon and a disgrace to this nation. I encourage all true patriots who have an ounce of decency to reject your garbage.

Not heresay on the intelligence, lil' johhny.
It was a statement given by Capt. Dinsmore, the intelligence officer.
Why don't you just read the testimony, like Robin suggested?
You say you don't know where to find it?
Who did you say your sources were, Zip, and his southern cousin Nada? Thought so.
Your only sources are for crack, or else you'd be bragging about it!
BTW, it's NOT A muslim country we invaded.
It's muslim countrIES...2 so far.
But then the term ain't done yet, is it?
Poor johnnie...all fluff, no stuff.
burp!

once again john, your blind liberal anti american faith, shines through loud and clear. do yourself a favor and move to another country, clearly this one is not for you.

I don't know where to start; your diatribe of lies is just another feeble attempt to justify the unjustifiable. I assure you that my research is impeccable and you can spout glittering generalities and personal insults all you want; the truth is the truth.

You call some hearsay bullshit about a generic white car relevant? So by that assinine logic it would have been ok to slaughter anyone in a white car? Could you make any less sense?

That's a lie that the men in the car were known insurgents. Khalid Ayada al-Zawi, Wajdi Ayada al-Zawi, Mohammed Battal Mahmoud and Akram Hamid Flayeh, had left the Technical Institute in Saqlawiyah for the weekend to stay with one of their families on the street. This has been corroborated by school officials and Fahmi, a friend of the young men. A Haditha taxi driver, Ahmed Khidher, was bringing them home, Fahmi said when they were slaughtered. They had no weapons, no explosives, they were shot dead. If they had AK-47's where are the marine investigators photos of those weapons hmmm? There are none; you know why? Because they didn't exist that's why!

Even if they produced weapons the US military is known for planting weapons on dead civillians. Like in another incident where Staff Sgt. Michael A. Hensley, who was charged with three counts of premeditated murder, three counts of obstruction of justice and three counts of wrongfully placing weapons with the remains of deceased Iraqis!

I don't care what firefight was raging in Haditha that day, that does not justify killing 24 unarmed and innocent civillians you right-wing war loving piece of crap!

Those men do not put their lives on the line to protect us! How are they protecting us? By invading and occupying a country that never attacked us? By occupying a Muslim country and fulfilling the warnings and prophecies of the Mullah's? By recruiting more terrorists? How dare we be in Iraq?

There is no draft, the military volunteers to do this. I hold this administration accountable and I have great sympathy for the troops on the ground who were not given body armor or armored vehicles, who were fed lies and then come home to face substandard conditions at hospitals and worse.

But that does not give them carte blanche to slaughter civillains. I would have more respect for them if they refused to go to Iraq, like so many good men and women have; risking jail and worse due to their incredible courage and unwillingness to fight Bush's filthy, dirty, immoral war.

You call some hearsay bullshit about a generic white car relevant? So by that assinine logic it would have been ok to slaughter anyone in a white car? Could you make any less sense? No.

PS...at least 8 of the 24 were known insurgents, including the ones in the white car.
Additionaly, the intelligence officer testified that the Marines were told to expect some sort of attack, and that a white car would play a prominant roll in it.
Thirdly, there is testimony placing AK 47s with that car, and that it's occupants were trying to run away.
Lastly, what in blazes makes you think people are going to believe an abcessed pimple such as yourself instead of men who have put their lives on the line to protect us?
You didn't anything of relevance about this case, you're too lazy to look up any facts, and, frankly, you smell.
Who you calling a moron?
LOL

John, you keep saying you are open to the truth, then immediately plug your ears, close your eyes, and run out of the room.
1st, there is over 8 hours of video from multiple UAV's documenting the battle that raged in Haditha that day. The ambush that killed LCpl Terrazas and gravely wounded LCpl Crossnan was just the opening round of a massive assault by insurgents on numerous, interconnected fronts.
There are more marines who died that day, many squads lost good men and suffered injuries to this city wide ambush.
There were multiple bombs dropped on houses where multiple insurgents were firing on our troops.
The insurgents routinely use "civilians" as human shields. Heck, even the little girl passed around the driveby media like a bong knew that the IED was about to blow so held her ears.
That revelation immediately wrecked her show business career....
Whether any of the others knew was a mute point. The insurgents are well aware of our ROE's and had a filmaker in place before the ambush started.
It took almost 4 months before the insurgents found a reporter gullible enough to fall for the charade but "Taliban" McGirk was the perfect patsy, and unlike you, had a job where he could spread his manure with impunity.
4 marines have been cleared after Article 32 hearings. The investigating officer was incredulous at the shoddiness of the prosecution's case and reccomended these cases be dismissed.
General Mattis made no reccomendations until the process had worked it's way through close to 2 years of investigations, including an independant investigation done by the Army - the Watt investigation, March 2006 - before any charges were brought.
That investigation did not find any violations.
Had you done any investigating before you shot your mouth off, you would have known that.
But then, plugging your ears and calling people morons is much easier than due diligence, isn't it?

War: The only winning move is not to play at all.

A wise man named Atticus Finch said, "You never really know a man until you stand in his shoes and walk around in them." Our country has NEVER walked around in the shoes of our Middle Eastern neighbors. Well, maybe a couple of times 200 years ago when our militias knew they must kill anyone on our soil who wore a red jacket and listened to some guy named George. I wonder if the British soldiers and citizens of the late 1700's felt about America the same as some of our citizens feel about Iraq. They probably thought:

We know what's best for them and maybe if we kill enough of them, they'll begin to understand this is for their own good.

No really our occupying forces aren't doing this for the valuable natural resources found there, they're doing this because those people aren't strong enough or wise enough to control their own destiny. We must continue to impose our system of government on them.

Sure we hate the French but I'll bet those colonists would be way easier to subjugate.

Everything will be great once they see our way is the RIGHT way.

I got an idea, let's hire some mercenaries who will show those people who's boss. Someone call the Germans and order up some Hessians. Those guys always get the job done.

I haven't really thought that hard about it. Can someone think of other parallels between our current and historical situations. Why do our social studies teachers continue to teach this stuff if we can't learn a few lessons from it?

Let's not evade an honest question. I am and will be open-minded to your answer.

Again, please tell us what mitigating circumstances would there be to justify slaughtering 24 unarmed civillians including women and children and an old man in a wheelchair given that squad leader Frank Wuterich admitted telling his men to "shoot first and ask questions later."

I'm not sure there are *any* mitigating circumstances, real or hypothetical, that the left side would accept.
Unless it was one of theirs in charge, then it seems just about any hypothetical would do.

Question - what mitigating circumstances would there be to justify slaughtering 24 unarmed civillians including women and children and an old man in a wheelchair. Do tell.

Keep in mind before you answer that squad leader Frank Wuterich admitted telling his men to "shoot first and ask questions later."