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Campaign: Sick for Profit
Posted by David Dayen on October 12th, 2009
Insurance Industry Goes To War

The big story from the weekend is that AHIP, the lobby for the insurance industry, waved around a study from Price Waterhouse Coopers (the Oscar people) claiming that, as a result of the Senate Finance Committee bill, health insurance rates will rise $4,000 faster by 2019 than if there were no bill at all. This study was summarily typed up by the Washington Post and the New York Times, though neither of them pointed out that the essential truth of this story is that the health insurance industry is saying they will rise insurance premiums faster if the Democrats pass health care reform.

That’s not so much news as a threat.

It also appears to be a threat at variance with the facts. For instance, the report left out the subsidies that would make insurance more affordable to anyone making up to 400% of the federal poverty level. Also, the report simply claims that the excise tax on insurance companies would just raise premium prices instead of causing employers to restructure their health plans and purchase less costly coverage.

And the list of strange assumptions goes on. Plenty of experts, including the CBO, don’t think health care providers will simply charge private insurers more to make up for declining revenue from Medicare. The experts could all be wrong, but PriceWaterhouseCoopers doesn’t even acknowledge this belief let alone explain why it might be wrong. Indeed, nowhere in the document does the firm reveal its methods, which is interesting since–unlike CBO or even, say, a private outfit like Lewin–PriceWaterhouseCoopers is not particularly known for this sort of modeling.

This just appears to be a bogus document to try and scare Congress into removing the tax on high-end insurance plans. The Senate Finance Committee described it in that way today.

“This report is untrue, disingenuous and bought and paid for by the same health insurance companies that have been gouging too many consumers for too long as they stand in the way of reform yet again. Now that health care reform grows ever closer, these health insurers are breaking out the same, tired playbook of deception to prevent millions of Americans from getting the affordable, accessible care they need. This report is pitching some seriously flawed analysis that nobody’s buying as it excludes all the provisions that will actually lower the cost of coverage – tax credits, grandfathering for existing policies, increased enrollment in private coverage and administrative savings from a more efficient mechanism for purchasing coverage. It’s a health insurance company hatchet job, plain and simple.”

The best face you can put on this is that the weakening of the individual mandate by the Finance Committee means that less Americans will have health insurance coverage, shrinking the risk pool and driving up costs. But as we’ve relentlessly documented, an insurance industry making billions in profits doesn’t have to actually raise their prices in exchange for being forced to take all comers. Anyway, experts have shown that the industry could easily cherry-pick individuals and weed out the sick to maximize profits. And they will try and use the insurance exchanges to do it:

Despite reforms prohibiting discriminatory practices, insurers would still have powerful incentives to cherry pick low-cost people and mistreat/shoo away high-cost people. While the reform bills include a risk-adjustment mechanism to reallocate dollars within the exchange(s) from insurers with lower-cost enrollees to insurers with higher-cost enrollees, that mechanism would likely fail to capture all the adverse selection effect, and insurers would have strong incentives to undermine the rules and deceive federal/state regulators trying to counteract the perverse incentives [...]

…what it tells us is that the insurers are counting on lots of younger, healthy people being forced to pay premiums, so they won’t be stuck with just older/sicker people with higher costs. [AHIP is] implicitly confirming that the scheme focuses insurers’ incentives on attracting the young and discouraging the old. These same incentives will be driving the industry whether the number of uninsured is 25 million or 17 million (as projected for the House bills).

The industry appears to want it both ways: they want to force everyone to buy their insurance, while cherry-picking the healthiest members of the uninsured for themselves, and sacrificing nothing in profits – in fact increasing them.

The Senate Finance bill doesn’t give them every single thing they want, so they’ve decided to go to war with it.

  • dstafford56
    What is our end goal in Afghanistan? An oil pipeline? We don't need it, we need to end our dependency on oil by developing solar and other sustainable energy sources. A goal worthy of all of us. Just think, what we might be able to accomplish if we put all that money we are spending in Afghanistan and put it into renewal energy jobs here in the U.S. Think what it would do for our economy!
  • texasconservative
    I'm on-board with that!!
  • shano
    Afghanistan has cost about a trillion dollars...more than universal health care will cost.

    Republicans are always willing to fund wars, but not willing to look at the reality that all Americans deserve good access to health care.
  • texasconservative
    Two completely different issues that have to be addressed independently.
  • Craig_Sipple1
    No TC, pissing money away on Afghanistan while your own countrymen and small businesses are going bankrupt due to the healthcare issue is completely relevant.

    Your side has no credibility when pointing to the economics of the public option while advocating this stupid war that you have already lost.
  • texasconservative
    Spending money on an unnecessary war is obscene! Watching the men and women of our military used as cannon fodder for some inane politic-ideology is criminal! But, as sad and unjust as this war is, the health care debate is separate issue and should be argued and judged on a separate set of values.

    This government wants to hoist a health care cost on us that is, UNSUSTAINABLE! The best health care bill in Congress will only affect 1/3 of the uninsured at a cost that is out of the realm of reality, leaving 2/3 uninsured? This isn't about health care, it's about advancing the power this government has over the people. If it was about the people, they would be removing the restrictions on national competition, enacting badly needed tort-reform, insurance portability, and host of other restrictions that would drive down the cost of health care.
  • shano
    No, it is all taxpayer money.
  • texasconservative
    Duh...really?
  • utahliving
    We really need public option!
  • texasconservative
    Why do we need a public option?
  • shano
    Where I live there is a monopoly. I can only access BC/BS for individual insurance and they have raised my premiums and reduced my benefits drastically. There is no where else for me to buy insurance. I also a have a pre existing condition that means a vital organ in my body is NOT COVERED FOR ANY REASON. Not just the disease I had 30 years ago, but for any other condition! thats absurd!

    If the Health Insurance Corporations had been satisfied with, say, 5 to 8% overhead, we would not be reforming health insurance. There is NO WAY the for-profit insurers can provide good and comprehensive health coverage to anyone when they take 20 to 30% off the top.

    Casinos take 20%. Health insurance corporations used to take 5%. It is their own unadulterated greed that has caused outrage by the majority of consumers about their scamming, con job, statistical analysis racket. Stop killing people, for profit health corporations, and stop stealing from American citizens
  • texasconservative
    Sorry to hear that! Your right, a pre-existing medical condition should not preclude insuring anything else that the condition is not specifically and directly the cause of. Having a pre-existing medical condition you did not directly contribute to, such as drinking, smoking, obesity, or a communicable disease (within parameters) etc, is an area that needs to be addressed immediately.
    The gross profits insurance companies are making tells me pre-existing conditions could be dealt with in a far more equitable way. This is another area open, inter-state competition could drastically bring down.
  • dstafford56
    Name calling only fortifies your opponents position in a debate. It tells them that they have already won the argument, and that you can offer no logical support to your argument. The resort to personal insult is simply an attempt to divert attention from the lack of support, and shows you to be a bit of a bad sport as well.

    The question, "Why do we need a public option?" is not stupid question, it is a very valid question, to which there several good, logical responses. Its simple competition, without a public option, there is no real competition in the industry. The insurance industry have gotten so large, and so focused on continued growth and profits, that they have forgotten the purpose that they are supposed to serve. Many customers are unsatisfied and would like to leave, but there is no real alternative in the market place. A public option offers these unsatisfied customers a place to go and would allow the market to adjust naturally, forcing the large insurance companies to offer better rates, pay more claims, etc. Personally, I am surprised more conservative don't support the public option.
  • texasconservative
    I'm opposed to a "government controlled option". Even the French health care system, which is suppose to be the best in the world (not single-payer), is now experiencing the inevitable, "cost controls", public options invariably produce.
    I would like to see the free-market given a chance to work. Federal, and state regulations account for nearly 20% of the cost for private insurance. These are in the form of required insurance mandates that everyone is required to pay for even though they may not apply to the vast majority of citizens. Insurance contracts should be tailored to the individual. There is no reason an insurance customer should be paying for the poor health care choices others make, such as smoking, over-eating, etc. The people that choose to live those life-styles should be paying insurance premiums base on those life-styles.
    Tort reform, targeted at removing junk-lawsuits, is another area that needs to be addressed. Hospitals, and doctors are paying outrageous insurance premiums because of junk-lawsuits, and those costs are being passed on to the consumers.
    Inter-state competition is a must. There are many states that hold competition to 4-6 providers. Why, mainly due to politicians who have favored insurance lobbyists who have contributed large sums of money to help keep them in office.
    The unfair, and corrupt system of lobbying must be reformed. The insurance industry alone employees 6 lobbyists to every politician in Washington. Graft and greed is rampant!
    The governments role in health care should be that of a referee, not a player. Our capitalist, free-market society has always done well as long as the government made sure there was a level playing field as free as possible from government partisanship.
    I think, reforming the insurance industry, tort reform, and open competition nation-wide, should be tried before this government is allowed further access into our private lives. This, and previous governments, have proved time and again, they are incapable of running anything that doesn't cost far more, and accomplish far less than the private sector.
  • shano
    well Americans do love medicare, for all the problems it has. I has only a 3% overhead and takes the oldest and sickest, the disabled populations.

    The VA is currently the highest rated health delivery system in the US.

    tort reform is less than 1% of costs. I wish conservatives whould add something with some 'mest', like real regulation. Stop the insane statistical analysis on individuals that will determine how much of the costs they put on consumers.

    the biggest problem is this, one NEVER knows what will be covered and what will be disputed when one actully has to USE their insurance! that is what is wrong here. the 'free market' is not going to change that, and never will. Because a health insurance corporation is mainly concerned with profit not service.

    And if you are unfortunate enough to find out you do not like your health plan or insurance, they have you-you are screwed. there is no way to change your poilicy or coverage if and when you find out that your particular illness or condition or accident is going to drive you into bankruptcy. No one should go bankrupt for medical bills, ever, when they are paying for health insurance. that should be a minimum protection, it is why we HAVE insurance in the first place.
  • texasconservative
    The VA is the top health care provider. That's because it's a no frills outpatient provider. They do only what is needed on an outpatient basis to address your health care needs and then your out the door.
    Tort reform, could reduce the health care costs by $54 Billion over the next 10 years. That's approximately 0.05% of the health care costs for that time period.
    As to your statement about what is covered in your insurance contract, I don't know what to tell you other than read it and find out.
    As for the rest of your statement, I really don't know what your trying to say? If your family has inherent medical problems I would suggest looking into catastrophic medical insurance.
  • shano
    So why not have what Vermont has right now, low cost clinics where everyone can get access to a doctor and get high quality care, just like the VA....this is possible with a public option.

    Tort reform is not much at holding down costs, but the right keeps nagging about it, OK, have tort reform but it does nothing to make health care better.

    I am really really healthy, I eat right and I was an athlete, I own my own business. I own my own home free and clear and have worked really hard. But I know that in America I could lose everything I have worked for, all my life, to a catastrophic illness. There is no safety in any of the insurance policies I can buy, thjey are all a ripp off. They all use statistical analysis to push more and more of the costs of health care on to the consurmer....they have this down to a science. That is why 60% of all bankruptcies in the US are cause by medical bills. These people have 'insurance' or what they thought was good coverage. Once you find out your coverage is not all that good, it is too late and you are screwed.

    What kind of insurance do you have ? Have you ever tried to READ a health insurance policy? It is my experience that what kind of healthinsurance you have will determine whether or not you are for reform. People who have to buy in the individual market are most likely to be for reforming this broken system.
  • texasconservative
    How does Vermont's health care system differ from other states? From what I'm reading, their not much better than other health care system?
  • shano
    I live in AZ. so it is really bad here,.

    Vermont has covered every child, they also have low cost health clinics. They rank in the top 5. Texas has the worst rates of coverage, in the bottom 5 as far as number of uninsured. You all need to think really hard about this.
  • Guest
    You stupid conservatives JUST DON'T GET IT.
  • Craig_Sipple1
    Easy cowboy... he just has a different point off view from your own.
  • texasconservative
    Thanks for your in-depth, introspective and cogent dialectic response to what I thought was a relevant question.
    I guess, by Liberal standards, I was wrong?!!
  • Craig_Sipple1
    You are wrong TC. I know you are concerned about government infinging on your day to day freedoms but on the public option you are just plain wrong.

    The public option is freedom because it unshackels the physical human condition from the perversion of greed for money. The entire westernised and democratic world has moved forward not because we have had it impossed on us but because we have demanded it from government through standing on street corners in protest. It is ours earned by blood, sweat and teers. Your governnment takeover theory is completely back to front, you have no government, you only have banks and corporations that is why the public option is dead, because it doesn't suit them.

    Universal healthcare is freedom... you are a slave to your insurance premiums and to the whim of the moderators who vet your elegibility for healthcare, non of which give a damn about you. They only care about maximising turnover and lowering costs... nothing else.

    You are defending an abonomation.
  • texasconservative
    You want to talk abominations, Medicare, and Medicaid, two GOVERNMENT run health care system are pleauged by excessive administration costs, poor management, inflated prices, unnecessary and inappropriate care, and waist and fraud to the tune of $60 Billion annually in Medicare alone! And your suggesting we allow this government further intrusion into our health care?!
    I don't know the extent of the fiduciary responsibility in Scotland's government but, it's almost non-existent here. This government is being run by lobbyist money. The greater the amount of money contributed to a particular politician, the greater the chance of the special interest group has of getting their agenda passed.
  • Craig_Sipple1
    The fiduciary responsibility here is as simple as pay taxes and live your life. Its little different from you, except you pay an extra tax for your healthcare.

    I dont.
  • texasconservative
    Craig, this is not...NOT the Democratic Party of JFK!! The party my folks belonged to. The Democratic party has become the party of "entitlements". They have allowed this country to be invaded with people who are uneducated, unskilled, and in numbers that defy reason. We have close to 20 Million legal American citizens out of work and this government is still issuing visas for 120,000 immigrants to enter the U.S. monthly?!! Why...because, they now have a base of dependent citizens, DEPENDENT, on the Democratically held government for taxpayer money and resources, which in turn, guarantees a huge voting block to keep this government in power. That's why this government, on both sides of the isle, want to give illegal aliens amnesty. As usually, it' not about right and wrong, it's about POWER!! And the "people", be damned!!
  • shano
    OK, there is so much misinformation in your posts I do not know where to begin.

    Who caused this unemployment? the jobs that have been shipped overseas for the past 30 years.
    Who caused the bank failures and subsequent bailouts? The deregulation of financial industries that has happened over the past 30 years, since Reagan. And I must say, if McCain did not learn the lesson of the Savings and Loan bailout (btw, we are this close to paying off the 136 Billion dollars that cost) then the rest of the nation should have known what deregulation of our whole banking system could mean..

    The two wars that Bush put on a credit card. The out of control spending of the Bush administration when they outsourced that war to private contractors who stole us blind and killed soldiers with shoddy work and products.

    Obama inherited this whole mess. Including the biggest transfer of wealth from the middle class to the wealthy that happened under Bush. We have not seen an income gap like this since the Guilded Age.

    You should know your history better before you blame these things on Obama. President Obama is not a 'socialist', or a 'communist' or is he at all for 'entitlements'.. If you have listened to any of Obamas speeches at all, or read his books you would know he is all for personal responsibility. He did not want to run a car company-he needed to protect our industrial base and its 4 million jobs in the worst financial crisis since the 1930's.

    You sound like an crusty old fart, a surrender monkey eating his freedom fries while America is facing enormous problems. Do you know what a crisis this country is in after 30 years of failed economic philosophy and trade policies? I live in a border state. The Republicans did nothing about illegal immigration, nothing, and you want Obama to solve this problem in 8 months!

    You think we do not need immigrants. We do. Our schools have failed to produce the engineers and other highly educated people we need. A visa is not a work permit, you know. But we still have to import an alarming number of specialized workers. Republicans do not like our public schools, they underfunded them for decades.

    The huge corporations, Tyson, Smithfield, and Perdue, Cargil, they advertise for workers in Mexico. I lived in Sonora for three years. The huge corporations that encourage and I would say illegally recruit Mexican labor pay no penalty. thats how the big Agriculture likes things to be. Or something would have been done about it by now.

    You are just angry at the changing demographics in America. No longer a white majority in a few decades. Younger generations have no problem with this, of course, just you old farts who think white is synonymous with 'real America'.
  • texasconservative
    Who caused the unemployment and jobs moving overseas? THE ENTIRE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT..TWIT!! Of which Obimbo was a part of and contributed to..TWIT!!
    Obimbo inherited the entire mess? I would agree that he inherited a mess but, every president inherits the mistakes of the past government. It's what they do to correct those mistakes that determines whether or not their qualified to hold the office. This clown-president you put so much stock in has done nothing but worsen and already bad situation. I'm tired of his whinny-ass excusses! Do the job or get out!!
    This is the typical sheeple-like, brain-dead follower who can't or won't think for themselves. Instead of buying into the political rhetoric of either party, do you own research..TWIT!
    Know Obimbos history? That's not hard to do is it? Talk is all this idiot does, incessantly, without ever say anything new..much like you...TWIT!
    Crusty old fart? Wow, your able to determine my age, race, religion, without knowing me?!! You truly are a..TWIT, aren't you? The typical blowhard, who can't put forth a cogent thought without resorting to personal attacks!
    Immigration? What part of "THE ENTIRE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT", don't you get?!! What has Obimbo done in 8 months to curtail legal immigration or complete the mandate Congress passed to complete the southern border fence? I'll say it for you..NOTHING!! Nothing but impede or ignore our immigration laws to pay back the debt he owes to business interests that put million of dollars into his election campaign.
    Changing demographics--White majority? You mean European majority don't you? But, maybe you didn't know that because your an uneducated racist!! You are talking about the people who made this country the greatest in the world aren't you? You mean the racially mixed European people who came here and did what the neighboring countries could have never done? You mean those people, don't you?
  • shano
    I am a Native American, a Shawnee, as a matter of fact. i think America was pretty good all along.

    And I travel to the EU twice a year on business. Obama has an 80% approval rating in Europe and a 54% approval rating here in America. Europe has real news. America has faux news, and I would say that is the difference. It is an advantage to get real news instead of having lies and distortions propagated as truth, which is what you are doing here. You must watch faux news, thats my conclusion.
  • texasconservative
    I watch Fox news yes your sage-like conclusion was correct but, I watch FOX...as well as BBC...CNN...and occasionally public-broadcast news. Your not suggesting that only Europe has the REAL NEWS, are you? You wouldn't make an obviously stupid remark like that would you? You wouldn't suggest that Europe's 80% approval rating of the Princess, means anything here, would you? Or that somehow you've relied on an incorrect Liberal-Gallop poll of 54% approval rating when the actual number has dropped to 28%, would you? Because, if you are you'd better stop messing with that peyote before it does serious brain damage!
  • Craig_Sipple1
    The reason that immigration is being ignored is to dilute the workforce and drive down wages to dependency levels, so you are right, it is about power. But TC, its not the government, its Wall Street banks that are behind it, they are operating through the executive of which they have taken over. Sorry to sound mellowdramitic, but that is the way it is.

    Republicans and Democrats - two sides of the same coin. That is why I like Ron Paul even though I dissagree with so much of his idiology, Ron Paul is not corrupt.
  • texasconservative
    You are right but, I would suggest collusion between this government and business interests. We have a president hell-bent on socializing a free-market capitalist society that will, and is doing everything within their power to bring about drastic changes to foster his "spread the wealth", idiocy!
    The only reason Republicans are fighting this so hard is, they know their base, the working middle class, is dead-set against spending this country into oblivion. That is not to say the Republican Party wouldn't join in with the Democrats if they thought for one moment they could stay in office after voting for the programs this president wants that will inevitable bring this country to it's knees.
    The majority of economist in this country agree, if government would stay out of the private sector it would make the necessary adjustment but, true to form, this clown-president is not going to let a crisis go by without milking it for all it's worth.
    The Liberals, with the help of Republicans, have elected a president that has neither the aptitude nor the depth of character required to understand the inner workings that makes this country work. He is a product of his environment.
    Let him have his way, and just as Rev. Wright has stated, "the chickens will come home to roost".
  • shano
    Bush killed off the working middle class in this country. We had the largest gains in worker productivity in the past ten years-largest in history-and workers wages were flat or actually fell. any profits for workers were eaten up by the giant for-orofit health insurance corporations.

    We also have less money and assets in the hands of the middle class as a percentage of overall wealth. We have become more like Mexico.the gap between the rich and the poor is huge now. A VEO used to make 30 times the average wage. Now he makes over 400 times the average wage. this nation has been captured by the corporatists......Obama has a huge job to turn this around. It is entrenched, obviously, when middle class people DEFEND this Corporate fascism and call our president a 'socialist'.

    Some people are just not all that into church. And Obama is one of them. I am another. and I do not want these religious fanatics in power ever again. that is the Republican party.
  • texasconservative
    Religious fanatics are the Republican Party? That is really a stupid remark to make! But it is in line with the rest of your idiotic remarks, isn't it?!! If nothing else, you keep your lips firmly planted on the latest convoluted Liberal-Progressive rhetoric crap, don't you!
    Obimbicile, is a SOCIALIST!! What part of "spread the wealth", isn't SOCIALISM?!! When the hell did he get the authority to take from those that work, and give it to the leeches that feed off of the labor of others?!! When did that become morally just?!!
  • shano
    As opposed to Reagan and Bush, who spread the wealth to the already wealthy?
    Their base, their friends, the Carlile Group, Haliburton, KBR. the wealthy captured more of the pie under these two presidents, the middle class got screwed, and we are paying for that right now.
    The whole Christian Conservative movement, now, represented by Pailin..no, as an Independent I never want those people in power, ever.

    Obama is the POTUS, get over it.
  • texasconservative
    Obimbicile is your president. I didn't vote for this clown. I read his socialist platform prior to the elections. I listened to his juvenile empty slogans and his speeches long on empty rhetoric and short on substance. You'd have to be brain-dead, not to see through his sophist trash. This is a ONE-TERM, president. If he makes that far without being impeached!! He has done more to divide this country in 8 months than the last two presidents did in 16 years.
    POTUS? You mean POMPOUS...DON'T YOU!!
  • shano
    Who is going to run against Obama in 2012 and win? Palin? Santorum? Paulenty?
    I just do not see him losing in '12 with the sorry candidates on the Republican side. the GOP has become a Southern Regional party, 24%, who do not appeal in the least to the vast majority of Americans. Good luck with that prediction, though. I would not bet on it.
    sheesh, I had to put up with 8 years of Bush, now you know how I felt, hahah
  • texasconservative
    I'd be surprised of he wins the Democratic nomination for a second term. There is a growing movement among moderate Democratic who are getting just as fed up with this empty-suit as the Conservatives are. By the time 2012 rolls around the GOP could run almost anybody against this "waist of time", and win! It's time for an Independent Constitutionalist to bring this country back to it's original roots before we become just another Progressive third-world toilet!!

    You can wallow in your short lived socialist agenda with this pretender all you want. The majority of this country is conservative, on both sides of the isle, and as this clowns glaring lack of leadership becomes more evident over the next few years, you can bet he will thrown out of office.
  • shano
    Obama has a 54% approval rating. You are just in a Southern bubble, so do not know what the majority think. I travel all over the country. You are the extreme minority.

    Obama is not a socialist. It does not mean what you think it means.
  • texasconservative
    Rasmussen Poll = Oct 16, 2009
    Obimbicile has a 28% approval rating, and a 39% DISAPPROVAL RATING!

    And yes, Obimbacile is a socialist and it means exactly...what it means!!
    Live with it!
  • shano
    You keep disrespecting the POTUS. Now that was a sin when Bush was in office. And Bush was the worst president in American history, according to about 90% of historians..

    Obama is a centrist Democrat, I wish he a a bit more left, but will take what I can get after Bush.
  • texasconservative
    I'll disrespect the POMPOUS, as long as he disrespects us! We are in agreement on Bush. But, Obimbicile, is not a Democrat! He is a socialist, who will lean in either direction, to get his socialist agenda passed. Take a good look at who he surrounds himself with. A hodge-podge of socialists, shake-down artists, racist reverends, proved terrorists, etc. This guy hasn't got the first clue about running a cigar-shop, let alone this country. He runs this country by committee! Taking advise from every crackpot he can find. Not only is this clowns presidency laughable, it's scary? When asked specific questions, he has no answers, only platitudes and weak arguments like, "I inherited this mess". Yea, he inherited a mess but, he's done nothing to change it! The only thing he's good at is putting his face in front of a camera or spouting speeches to the choir!! Instead of calling him the president, why aren't we calling him the " LOBBYIST IN CHARGE".
  • shano
    Thats why we are reforming Medicare/medicaid in this bill. But it is still better than for-profit insurance. Medicare has a 4% overhead, for profits have 30% overhead.

    We are trying to reform Medicare/Medicaid and all the right wing can do is say 'no'. It is pathetic. how long have we wanted to reform these systems? forever. We reformed the VA with great success, so I know it can be done.

    All you 'conservatives' can do is try to scare old people about this effort by saying their benefits will be cut.....um, no, we are cutting out the fraud and waste-old people will have better coverage! You all are LIARS on this issue and it leaves me with no respect for anything the right has to say. All they say is no, and tort reform.

    It is just the Republicans who think government can do nothing right, but government can be well 'governed'. It is only when people who do not believe that government can do good are in power that we get the most fraud, waste and abuse (witness Bush oil and gas leasing agency for example)
  • texasconservative
    This is the typical mindless-rhetoric of the Liberal sheeple! Without any thought given to consequences of government run health care system such as, delays because over use, denial of service because the government deems your case does not warrant the costs incurred, the unbelievable amount of errors because...it's GOVERNMENT-RUN, or the gross-invasion of privacy is of little consequence because, you think it's going to be free?!! In a country of over 300 Million people the cost to the government will be in the Trillions, and somebody's got to pay for it!! Which of course means, UNBELIEVABLE TAXES! The Liberal-Democrats are living in a Utopian, never never land, devoid of the realities of the cost, and organization needed to run a health care system the size their talking about. This inept government couldn't even run a "cash for clunkers" program, and you think they can run a national health care program?!!
  • shano
    Do not join the public plan if you do not think you will like it. we have to have a way to let people who make under $75 grand a year get affordable health care. It is the moral thing to do. You cannot have a strong nation without healthy people.

    If there is no public option, then you will have to address the heresy of government regulating the profits of a publicly traded corporation like United Health. they are never going to stop screwing their customers, never, there is too much profit to be made. Their CEO makes a dollar for every $700 dollars in the entire healthcare system!

    There were much higher taxes under Reagan. Obama has made the public option deficit neutral, meaning people will pay for the policies, it will have an affordable sliding scale to universal coverage-the moral thing to do-and a smart way to bring down costs for everyone. the insurance companies have already stated they will raise rates 111%. in ten years. more than double what we pay now. think about that.

    ps: you are not another old guy on Medicare areyou? wanting to prevent your fellow Americans from having healthcare..that is not ethical.
  • texasconservative
    The problem with NOT joining the "public option" is, it will eventually be the ONLY OPTION! And just like the ONLY OPTION, government run health care systems in other countries, it will eventually lead to medical shortages on every level, and an invasion of my personal privacy by this government. A government that has no business being in the private sector.

    p.s. your not that, LAST-TWIT, that doesn't understand that Medicare and Medicaid are nearing insolvency are you?!! You know, the government run health care systems that are about to go belly-up, that you think are so great!
  • shano
    You are wrong. They estimate 10 million people will be in the public option. Are you a psychic? Can you predict the future? What other major events have you predicted? You just pulled that out of your ass.

    Insofar as the public option taking over the whole health care system. It is not designed to do so. I hear this all the time from Republicans. they want the Corporations to continue to steal from and kill the American people. they want us to have the most expensive health care delivery system in the world. Tell me, what do these corporations do that adds value to providing medical care? Nothing but take 30% off the top. A casino takes 20% Medicare has an overhead of 4%.

    this bill also reorganizes Medicare/Medicaid to prevent their insolvency. So, we have a chance to end up with a functioning health insurance sector that covers everyone.
    .
  • texasconservative
    Is your Shawnee name...TWIT? The "public option", is suppose to cover the people who can't afford insurance, approximately 30 million people at a cost that is unsustainable! And, as written, will only cover 30% of that number at a cost of untold Trillions paid by future generations of legal American citizens. You don't have to be a shaman to see through this "dream catcher", do you?!!
    Obimbicile suggest we, in the future, cut out the EXISTING...EXISTING graft and greed to save Medicare and Medicaid?..?..? Huh...what? EXISTING....CORRUPTION??
    What would his Native American name be...."Cazy-ass-horse-apple"...or maybe..."Man who talks out of his ass", or "Organ grinder man who promises liberal-monkey free home, food and health care, as long as monkey dances to his tune"?!! The last one is my personal favorite!
  • shano
    Wow, you are a stone cold racist.

    Get help buddy. You are delusional.
  • texasconservative
    Delusional.?..Racist.?..I believe you have filled both those rolls quite nicely. You actually believe the crap this guy throws at you without you ever stopping to question it. That's delusional!!
  • Craig_Sipple1
    Government works, but you have to get back too the basics:

    "of the people, by the people, for the people"
  • texasconservative
    That sir, is going to take another "War of Independence"! An internal war to take back the government. As far fetched as they may sound, it's not out of the realm of a substantial possibility. The quiet majority of this country is getting mad. And if this empty-suit president gets his way, our already bad economic situation will spiral out of control and we will be looking at a second DEPRESSION. Can you imagine the amount of backlash against this government that will occur if this nonsense is not stopped now?
  • Craig_Sipple1
    Of course you know the mood on the ground, but I think it would be a mistake for you to compair the anger in Texas with other parts of America. Majorities on both American coasts have bought into the Obama mythology and see protesters as "bad loosers" within a 'percieved' fair and democratic system.
  • texasconservative
    I would have agreed with you 6 months ago but the mood on both our coasts is quickly turning. When the public learned that politicians in Washington rarely, if ever, read the bills their voting on the outrage resonated, coast to coast.
    Citizens saw first hand, at town-meetings, the low regard politicians have for their constituency. We have watched one politician after another being caught with their hands in the cookie-jar, and little or nothing done to bring these thieves to justice. If it were one of the "common", justice would have been swift!

    By the way...did you notice how fast they pulled the "Rush Limbaugh is a racist" article? That's because, several independent sources took it upon themselves to investigate the allegations and found them to be false. Not one direct racist remark has been found by anyone, and those that claimed he did are going to be hit with lawsuits. Personally, I'm hoping he sues them for everything they have!! These people have gotten away with personal attacks for so long they think they have a right to lie without consequences.
    The Obama mythology is quickly wearing thin as more American are seeing through the political rhetoric that is designed (sophism) to misdirect us from the real problems. The health care debate is designed to pull us away from the real issue, which is the devastating problems this economic downturn has brought. This clown-president hasn't been in office one full year and already I'm sick to death of him!!
  • shano
    sheesh. one more. You know there are hundreds of statements from Rush that are hugely racist. he is nothing if not a racist, and a misogynist. please. I have to laugh about that it is so delusional.

    Craig, this guy is from the 24% who still support Bush and have a radio host as their leader .
  • texasconservative
    Actually, if Rush were running for office, I think I'd vote for him. He's got to be better than that empty-suit thats in office now! I'd love to see Rush and Obimbicile in a head to head debate. Of course, that would never happen because the little Princess (Obama-tard) knows he'd be made to look as foolish as he really is. You'd like to see that too, wouldn't you?
  • texasconservative
    I stated a fact. Do you see the article on this blog? Wasn't it here a couple of days ago? If you want to read racist remarks, try looking up Obimbicile's racist remarks! And that clown is suppose to be the (pretend) president of the U.S.!!
  • shano
    oh good god, why dont you all secede already? Please. You struggle to even understand the complex problems in this 21st Century.
    Go back to the Alamo. go on.
  • texasconservative
    Is everything...racistism with you? Secede, that's not a bad idea! We seceded from England, why not secede from this inept Obimbicile government?
    "Oh good God"?? Are you one of those fanatic religious Democratic nuts? You know, the kind of person who can only regurgitate the Progressive rhetoric without ever finding out whether it's true or not?
  • Craig_Sipple1
    Its an interesting problem all right. You realise that if there was to be conflict then it would be 'civil'? That is the worst kind. Although I think you are jumping the gun it is fascinating how quickly the world is changing. Wasn't so long ago that the dollar was seen as the ankor that the global economic system was harnessed to and it wasn't so long ago that the American dream represented the asperations of us all. I have changed my oppinion on US immigration recently, while its only natural for people to seek out a better life you guys need to focus on yourselves for a while and get this thing under control.

    Go after the employers and immigration will evaporate overnight. The laws already exist and have been on the books since the eighties.
  • shano
    Craig: you have to realize this TC is one of those 'conservatives' who listen to, admire and pledge fealty to a couple of insane former drug addicts, Glen Beck and Rush Limbaugh. That is all that need to be said.
  • Craig_Sipple1
    Beck, Rush and the rest are clowns. There will always be that 20% who cant locate America on a map who are seseptable to easy quick black and white, good and evil answers but most folks are just entertained by them and no more... I hope :/
  • texasconservative
    Wow, you figured out I'm a conservative, although; I suspect, not on your own? I'll listen to anyone who makes sense, and makes their arguments based on known facts. You, on the other hand keep making statements that are based on supposition.
  • texasconservative
    You are absolutely right. Nobody is against legal immigration but, it has to be a controlled immigration. We are in the midst of a sever recession that is going to get worse before it gets better, and this government continues to allow illegal aliens to hold jobs in the U.S, suck our welfare and social systems dry, take taxpayer educational dollars from our children, and, on top of all that, continue to bring in immigrants to take jobs from American citizens! Any reasonable person would say, let's put a hold on legal immigration, force all illegal employers to fire illegal aliens, force illegals off our welfare and social services rolls, which would force them to deport themselves.
    We, as a nation can no longer afford this insanity. We're not talking Billions any more, we're talking Trillions of dollars being spent that we don't have! We have a cancer in this country that is going to have to be forcibly cut out or this nation will cease to exist as we know it!
  • shano
    Secede. Then you will be fighting your border wars on your own.
  • texasconservative
    Control our sovereign borders and we can control, to greater degree, the threat of terrorism, and weed out the people who think they have a right to what is ours, without being invited in. Concepts, your willing to ignore to achieve your selfish, racist-greed!
  • Craig_Sipple1
    Terrorism TC?... really?

    Trust me, no one from the middle east is the least bit interested in Texas. Your own fellow Texans?... well that is a different matter.
  • texasconservative
    To tell you the truth, I don't either. People who were born and raised here probably are! It's not just about terrorist because, I'm sure their already here and it's just a matter of time before they are able make a successful attack. And, just after that successful attack, and it turns out they entered from the southern border, can you imagine repercussions against this government?!
    A very real threat, is the economic attack we are under daily from people who have no right to be here. Our welfare, social services, health care, education systems are so overburdened by illegal aliens some states are on the verge of bankruptcy. We actually have legal citizens who justify the theft of American tax-dollars by illegal aliens without any thought given to just who this hard earned money is being stolen form?!!
    There is close to 20 Million American citizens out of work, and 8 Million illegal aliens holding jobs in the U.S.? There is NO legal or MORAL argument that can justify this crap!! What does this dufus-president (Obimbicile) want to do? He wants to grant illegal aliens amnesty and force legal American citizens to bare the economic loss by their own families to subsidize people who have entered our country UNINVITED, and UNWANTED. Just recently there was a large parade of in Los Angeles by Latinos, waiving Mexican flags and, DEMANDING FREE HEALTH CARE!! Need I say more?!!
  • shano
    Join the Militiamen. or is that the Minute men. ? They would love someone like you in their ranks.
  • texasconservative
    I joined two years ago...and yes they love me! You should join La Raza, they would love you. Your just the kind of misguided dufus their looking for. You could adopt a really cool Aztec name like...Quos-iquatal-dumberthan-dumb!
  • Craig_Sipple1
    You are turning out to be quite the multi dimentional interesting character TC.

    Cant say I approve, you know some people would refer to your little club as a potential terrorist organisation, not me, but some would. Tell me though, when the chips are down and you are leveling your sites at another American, would you pull the trigger?... have you thought this thing through?

    anyhoo if you were to sucede Texas would qualify under the protocol of the Munro Doctrine, that should keep your millitia busy.

  • texasconservative
    Just what, are you not approving of? Maybe I can shed some light on my Independent conservative ideology, that seems to upset quite a few people on this liberal-blog.
  • Paul Lenart
    Capital strike. Standard.
  • The insurance industry really seems to realize they're going to have a problem maintaining the status quo and $10 million/year CEO salaries and are running scared.
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