Perhaps you are not understanding. But we don't need to debate the meaning of single sylable words aka Bill Clinton do we? It's a simple question. What do you like about this country? The Yankees? the food? the Guggenheim museum? the right of free speech? the culture? our values? our belief in democracy? . . . what do you love about America?

Fash - Good for you for seeking to inform and share your point-of-view on what's clearly an important issue to you. You make some good points in the last coupple of posts.

One problem though, many in America would not support a quid-pro-quo concerning military service. You said . . . "and the difference between hundreds of thousands of volunteers and DREAMers is that the volunteers are joining...well, voluntarily".

The problem with that is you are not citizens and in every single country in the world citizens are afforded protections and rights that non-citizen's are not. And that is exacerbated by the reality that you are not in this country legally. So that is what you need to deal with. If you want to make the case that kids were brought here involuntarily, I think that you would get great support for being allowed to stay, etc. based on humanitarian grounds and the general compassion many have for children. But whe you try to create any semblance of a playing ground that is equal, the waiting in line, fairness issues rear their heads and always will. Pragmatism and results versus intransient dogma and no results.

Helpful hint. Don't co-mingle moral social issues with your immigration cause. You see, there are millions of anti-immigrant reactionaries just looking for an excuse to dismiss the entire effort as just being another extension of the anti-religion, far left crowd assaulting American morality. Yes I know despicable and worth railing aganst absolutely. All I am saying is sometimes discretion is the better part of valor.

Good luck, I support your cause.

Regarding the military issue, allow me to suggest the fallacy of your argument when you just said . . . "something that requires innocent young people to go to war as a punishment. If they willingly wish to join the army, then that is fine, but to make it a requirement to those for whom college is out of reach is immoral".

There is no draft and yet hundreds of thousands of men and women join the military voluntarily. That is considered by most Americans to be a patriotic thing to do. Accordingly, the thought is to require the affected undocumented persons of military age to serve this country in that manner. No one is agaisnt the horrific military debacle in Iraq more than I but again, this is not about me, it's about how mainstream America sees this issue.
Also, many, many countries require military service.

No one is telling you to shut up Fash. I don't expect you to, I respect and defend your right to say whatever you choose to. I have that same right and until I am censored, which I am sure is a possibility, I will keep speaking my mind.

What I think does not matter at all. But, I do support CIR as you described; unfortunately many of you don't pay attention as I am endeavoring to point out WHY the pro-immigration movement has been largely unsuccessful in getting legislation passed. It's the fairness issue that the American people have an issue with; along with porous borders. If you secure the borders and deal with the fairness issue there may be a chance to pass legislation that both sides can live with. Being moderate is a path to solving this issue in a comprehensive manner; not what I personally believe or don't believe.

Kyledeb I feel sorry for anyone that thinks that challenging someone intellectually and politically is harassment. Welcome to America and the internet, and the free expression of one's beliefs in a public forum. Deal with it.

I asked what you love about this country. If you don't want to answer, that's your right but I'm interested in your perspective. As part of our dialogue you said you alluded to the fact that you love this country and don't care about the one you came from. Fair enough, I respect that statement if that's how you feel. So, tell me what you love about this country.

I'm not at all mad. But I'll grant you your wish, I am not really interested in continuing to debate with kool-aid drinking elitists and I am embarassed and ashamed as to what has happened to the Democratic party. Have fun deluding yourself and patting each other on the back, I'll just hope that not too many people suffer and die down the road because of your naive, suicidal rhetoric.

Good luck to you. I'm vaporizing myself.

As usual Jake you don't address the facts and instead want to just atatck those that don't follow "the party line". Guess the Democratic party isn't a big tent anymore, and god forbid someone questions and challenges Obama on anything. Nothing I just said is derogatory it is political commentary and opinion.

I said clearly why this is an issue to me and millions of others. I am not a Hillary supporter, I am a "win in Novemeber supporter". You speak as if this is one sided and that is bullshit. The Obama campaign has had four conference calls now on Hillary and Bosnia and an Obama spokesperson just recently said that Hillary wasn't qualified to place a wreath at the tomb of the unknown soldier at Arlington. I could list scores more. You think this is not a two-way effort to demean? Get real.

The fact that this is being posted on a left-wing web site is illustrative of how absurdly naive the movement has become. Hillary bashing and hatred is considered mandatory and a requisite admittance card if you want to play with the really cool elitists that think they are smarter and more righteous than everyone else.

The reality is that mainstream America, independents and moderates who will decide this election are totally turned off by all of this. Instead if stopping, being quiet and letting this thing play out the terminally misguided left fan the flames, defend calling Hillary and Geraldine Ferraro whores and villify and demean the best president we have had in decades and a woman who made a serious effort to push universal health care 14 years ago.

Hillary is a candidate and she will drop out when she is ready to, everyone knows that she isn't listening. She is trying to win. A problem, perhaps. But alienating millions of her supporters, good Democrats, to the point where they will lose all enthusiasm for the general election effort and probably not vote for her opponent after reading crap for months is just plain stupid.

This is why Democrats lose elections and you will have to excuse those of us who happen to think this is not a game and genuinely fear a McCain administration. Hillary will not win and everyone in the world knows it. Let the people vote, stop the hatred of her and start to build some unity. She is not the enemy the GOP is.

Anything the Clinton campaign is saying about Obama would have and will be put forth by McCain and the 527's. She's doing him a favor, he better be able to deal with these things.

Feel free to blast me again, I realize that any perspective here that isn't in lock step with "the position" is shunned.

So I ask you. Why is military service wrong? Do we not need a military?

This is exactly the point I have been making. If you want to approach your effort from a reasonably moderate perspective and have a chance of it actually becoming law . . . there is no option here. Millitary service is considered serving your country and horrific war in Iraq not withstanding, that will go a long way towards getting mainstream America on your side. We don't have a say here how our tax dollars are spent and soldiers do what their superiors tell them to. That's just the way it is.

Unless of course, . . . the agenda is a much more radical one and the military is viewed as an evil institution, a view held me many on the far left. So the choice is yours to make. Go moderate and mainstream and have a shot . . . or don't and you won't.

And please do not mention Afghanistan and Iraq in the same breath, they couldn't be more different. That won't help you either.

A correction also. You say this . . "The military option requires of poor DREAMers and dropout DREAMers what would never be required of any other American kid--that they risk their life just for the luxury of not being forcibly removed from their homeland".

You need to deal with the fact that they are not "any other American kid" and it's not "their homeland" by any accepted definition of what homeland means. Should they be allowed to stay for humanitarian reasons? Absolutely 1000% yes. But don't say they are equal legally to an American child that was born in this country. That's just not true and that is exactly what angers mainstream Americans.

It's not about risking your life "for a luxury". Really poor choice of words. It's about, and listen carefully, Americans insisting on some modicum of fairness and demanding that those who are undocumented pay a fine or serve to make everyone feel as if fairness still matters.

No one labeled you. Why do you all make these assumptions? Who said you hate this country? I think articulating things and not speaking in glittering generalities does help clarify one's position though. I'm curious, what do you love about this country - that is an honest question not a gotcha one. I'd like to know.

I want you to be able to stay in this country. My entire perspective is wrapped up in deciding what the most effective way to effect change is. I have come to the conclusion that the change I persoanlly want will never happen, ever. This will never be a Socialist country, or even one where everyone starts on an even playing field with equal opportunity, this will never be a color and gender blind country, this will always be a religious, moderate to conservative country. I have concluded that eeking out small victories and getting the best deal one can is the best one can aspire to and when one appears too radical and outside the mainstream; the chances for achieving those victories are greatly diminished. Not my ideal, but a pragmatic reality. CIR is no different than any other in that contect. Gay marriage, the intrusion of religion, the death penalty, etc. Too far to the left is a losing proposition.

Kyledeb I am in no way anti-immigrant; quite the opposite. There is nothing anti-immigrant in what I said at all, the opposite is true. Unlike those who will realize no gains whatsoever due to being completely out of touch with most Americans and labeling everyone an enemy; true reform takes place in this country only when one is moderate. There is plenty of substance here read the entire page; but I understand why this small band of eliitist, so-called progressives won't go there, it's not their agenda. There were no credible concerns expressed just the most distasteful, self adulation and conceit. It's par for the course when those who encounter an intellectual equal who won't enable idiocy.

This effort is not about bringing Americans together to solve a difficult issue; it's about spewing hatred, calling people racists, and demonizing working people whose concerns for their jobs and lives are reduced to sound bytes and baseless accusations.

What a narcissistic, ego-maniacal and pompous braggert you are. You, are indeed uneducated, I could care less how many degrees you have or don't have as your lack of understanding of the real world and insatiable need to feed your hatred of caucasians and this country is palpable; no matter what color your skin is. Your ridiciculously inane and completely indecipherable diatribe proves that you are so far out of touch with the majority of Amdericans that you will never effect change for you or yours. Yours will be another meaningless, elitist academic adventure, a few words on a blog read by few and nothing more.

So bitter. Hatred for so many, demons at every corner, ghosts of centuries ago haunting your life, get over it. You dare accuse others of cultural insensitivity? You are the biggest racist imaginable.

Dreamactivist I really resent the distortions and the "absence of truth" in your arguments. How's that for polite. There are countless numbers of Europeans who are deported and I personally know two of them. One a nanny from England who has been here for 6 years most of them illegally after her visa expired and now she has exhausted her legal options and will probably be deported. And a car salesman from Antwerp, Belgium who was deported in January. So you are full of it.

The difference is that 200 years ago there was no country, no economy, no infrastructure and labor market, etc. It's absolutely preposterous to compare then to now. There were not 300 million people here then and there were no laws regulating immigration were there? You are completely uneducated on the subject as well, you should do some reading and you will understand the tremendous anti-immigrant bias that existed around the turn of the century, much of it directed at Europeans. Or are the Irish, Germans and others not European. And what about the Jews?

Get real and your duplicitous hyperbole defending Oathkeeper is more of the same. He said "I don't care about the country I came from." Period. That is not at all representative of the majority of immigrants who embrace their country of origin, language, culture and traditions.

But your most astounding comment is when you ask "how many Americans of European decent care about where they came from". Are you completely delusional? The Irish don't care? The Italians don't care? The Chinese don't care? The Germans don't care? I suppose all the parades and festivals and organizations and cultural music and cermonies d neighborhoods in all big cities are all illusions. My god, you are a poor represntative of your position.

yawn - finito

Ooooh you really got me...an ignoramus....stupid....it's so typical when someone meets their intellectual match that's what the conversation becomes. I understand; it's the inferiority complex and bitterness Canadians have always felt. We allowed the attack on Pearl Harbor? Oh, so FDR the father of American liberalism allowed us to be attacked and for so many to die? Stolen land? LOL That's a new one. If the United States was not involved in WWll we all speak German, that is not debatable. If Canada remained neutral, so what! The allies would have lost?

You really should get an education and stop flailing away holding on to freakoid conspiracy theories. Dismissed.

My name isn't Jhon by the way and you are just another American hater. Does loving one's country make one Dick Cheney? American's love their country and part of expressing that love is to hold it to account and endeavoring to make it better. No Canada didn't do that and Canada also didn't save the world from facism in WW2 did it? We never invaded Canada or China or Africa did we.

How's Steven Harper doing up there? If you hate us so much don't visit, don't pay attention. mind your own business.

No it isn't. You don't vote here, you aren't a citizen here, you can think whatever you want but it's rather irrelevent. George Bush is gone in a few months; from what I understand your Bush clone Harper is still going to be in office wreaking reactionary havoc; where is the no-confidence vote? I think you better pay attention to your own garbage. What do you have to say about China by the way? Or North Korea? Or the despotic regimes in Africa? From what I understand Canada is a major polluter; mining, cattle, etc. Clean up your own house.

You will get no argument from me about past sins of this country; but why don't you spew forth the good as well.

Fash you can go tit for tat with someone debating the merits of a wall or not, etc. The point is that until border security is dealt with "first". There will be "no" CIR. The will of the people is just not there.

Dream Activist, I also find comparisons to those that settled America irrelevent. Different times, different countries of origin, different circumstances, different technology and you are smart enough to know that.