-- Most people prefer to believe their leaders www.patriotamerica.com/JackMcLamb/Jaare just and fair, even in the face of evidence to the contrary, because once a citizen acknowledges that the government under which they live is lying and corrupt, the citizen has to choose what he or she will do about it. To take action in the face of a corrupt government entails risks of harm to life and loved ones. To choose to do nothing is to surrender one's self-image of standing for principles. Most people do not have the courage to face that choice. Hence, most propaganda is not designed to fool the critical thinker but only to give moral cowards an excuse not to think at all...
-- Most people prefer to believe their leaders are just and fair, even in the face of evidence to the contrary, because once a citizen acknowledges that the government under which they live is lying and corrupt, the citizen has to choose what he or she will do about it. To take action in the face of a corrupt government entails risks of harm to life and loved ones. To choose to do nothing is to surrender one's self-image of standing for principles. Most people do not have the courage to face that choice. Hence, most propaganda is not designed to fool the critical thinker but only to give moral cowards an excuse not to think at all...

http://www.jackmclamb.com/

"Do you realize how many tons of TNT would be needed to take a 110-story building down. Did they just sneak it in?"
Again,your words Raz..you should get your facts straight..wont take tons.And ask Willie Rodriguez a custodian at the WTC about the mysterious activity at the complex for weeks preceding 911.Bushs'brother-Marvin Bush headed a security company that had contracts at the WTC AND Boston Logan airport..Try to connect all the dots and you will one day see the whole picture...hopefully. As I said before MONEY TALKS and people will do anything for it.

Your right , it is childish, rude, insulting behavior which only leads to more childish behavior. I call a cease fire in name calling as it is unproductive. Saying that I would like to move on.
You say : Look at our distribution of wealth and tell me this country is fine, look at health care, the education system, unemployment rate, minimum wage, homeless-ness, or the murder rate. It's funny you picked New Orleans. A democratic city in a democratic state run by democrats. Entitlement. They expect the government to be responible for their education, they expect the government to provide them jobs, they expect the government to provide them healthcare, they expext the government to provide housing,they expect the government to feed them. They all have a choice. It all depends on what your priorities are. If you like to sit around all day expecting the government to provide for you ,well ,guess what? You're not going to get far. My wife and I worked very hard to get where we are. Living comfortably in sunny Florida with rental properties in NY. We didn't work 9-5 jobs with weekends off. Do you really expect me to feel bad for a young healthy person who refuses to hold down a job? One good thing Giuliani did in NY was get almost 400,000 people of welfare. Good enough to work? Go work for your check. Instead of trying to bring the hard-working Americans down try raise the poor lazy people up.
As far as the 9/11 theories where people saw flashing lights , look at the video there was no flashing lights or a boom right before the collapse. Do you realize how many tons of TNT would be needed to take a 110-story building down. Did they just sneak it in? 3 buildings? Like I said all the theories are either unprovable,false or have an explanation. Having said all that I will have an open mind and further look into the link you provided. There, now wasn't this better than the childish name calling?

Raz,
My friend, I was rather disappointed in reading your hurtful comments. If you’re childish, rude, insulting comments are made to goad me into some sort of heckling match your deeply mistaken. I know you have strange selective reading skills and a limited ability to converse civilly but aren’t you being a little hypocritical considering the conservative stance on abortion? Unless of course you’re no conservative in which case I take the latter statement back.

The point at hand is that again you don’t really want to debate, you want someone to yell at; Right wing ideology= yell until the other side can’t hear any more, then you’ve won. The boy raised his hand, what if the other side makes a valid point? The teacher, with a sly smirk stares directly into the boys eyes, well son if that happens change the subject, insult the guy, and continue to yell until he gives up or attacks you; in the event of an attack curl up into a ball call the police on your Bluetooth headset, when they arrive say the attacker is a crazy left wing communist terrorist and needs to be reeducated at Fox headquarters.
Pretty stupid huh? The same could be said for your asinine abortion comment, I question a government full of known liars and this makes me “the poster child as to why abortions should be kept legal.”

You go down to new Orleans and tell me the country is fine, you go visit North Philadelphia and tell me this country is fine, for that matter go to any poor neighborhood in America Black, White, Asian, or Latino and tell me this country is fine. Look at our distribution of wealth and tell me this country is fine, look at health care, the education system, unemployment rate, minimum wage, homeless-ness, or the murder rate and tell me this country is fine.

Its close minded people like you who only see what’s in front of their eyes instead of the big picture, that’s what’s destroying this country, its not the questioning “THAT’S OUR JOBS AS CITIZENS” of government “ITS THEIR JOB TO ANSWER” which is “hurting” our country, its the refusal of you and your ilk to inform yourselves and have rational debate with apposing views.
You live in NY, my friend these things are in front of your face, how can you not see what you say is just flatly wrong?

I’ll admit you have a point it will be a hard road to actually prove the governments complacency in the 9/11 attacks, just as the JFK assassination “classified reports” still have yet to be fully disclosed to the public, I’m sure the whole truth around 9/11 won’t be known for decades to come.
It is however possible with the rise in technology and the ability to communicate with people all over the world that this trend of secrecy will end. Time is the only factor that will bring us to an end point, in the mean time I would hope you can stay away from base insults “at least with me” because you’re only insuring a thoughtful “polite as possible” response.

Also a lot of the evidence which counters the official story is provable, for instance objects do not free fall 110 stories to the ground when concrete and steal is prohibiting it from doing so. I asked you to go to architects and engineers for 9/11 truth considering your statement about there being no truth to any of the theories I’m assuming you have yet to do so. Will you at least attempt to listen and read the information on that page? I think you owe me that much considering how much harassment I’ve taken from you.

Do you realize how ridiculous you sound, everybody from the 9/11 commision to the implosion of the buildings to expert pilots was in on the conspiracy and the people who know about it aren't saying anything because they are to afraid. Nobody is taking it seriously becayse there is nothing to taking seriously. These are looney left conspiracy theories that will never be proven because it is impossible to prove. Say goodbye to the tinman and Dorothy , leave the land of Oz and come back to reality. Get over it. It is over. All these theories were thrown in because of peoples hatred for President Bush. You can try all you want but at the end of the day it is unproven and unfounded can not make something out of nothing. If you tell a lie long enough people will start to believe it but when it comes time to prove it ...well.......it falls short. Way short. So like I said, you can believe what you want and we can believe what we want. Doesn't make either of us a bad person. We will never see eye to eye on this.

You are the one who rants Raz..You flew off the handle again when faced with facts - not speculation.Do you recall that it was the "Jersey Girls" that finally got an "investigation"going? Do you remember your God, Dubya appointed that war criminal Henry Kissinger as the first head? Do you know it was a Bush confidante that eventually headed it anyway?Do you know it was stacked with Bush cronies with some token Democrats? Do you know money TALKS and people will do anything for a buck? Do you know Dubya stonewalled on the formation of a commission at every opportunity? Do you know it took a year to get off the ground and ended up exactly like the Warren commission into the JFK assasination and completely ignored evidence that pointed elsewhere?

Anyway I thought you had mellowed there for a bit and that you were finally beginning to see the light.Obviously not.Also obvious is that you are not well read and talking with you is like flogging a dead horse.I will debate people who have the ability to analyse what they are told - not swallow everything hook,line and sinker.

WOW!!! 9/11 commision is part of the conspiracy also. So this was a conspiracy by everybody in Washington DC basically. Whoaaaaaaa let's get those witnesses to the witness stand and have them questioned by left wing liberals who happen to know everything. As far as Ranes rant that everything is wrong with this country ,your mother should of had an abortion. You are the poster child as to why abortions should be kept legal. Get the hell out of the country you ungrateful little bastard. As far as your conspiarcy theory why don't you think it's going nowhere?? Because there is nothing to it. NOTHING! Get over it. You can rant and rave all you want it is not going to get anywhere. The conspiracy theory is a bunch of BULLSHIT and unless you have compelling evidence that strongly ties this administration to 9/11 besides all the hearsay , and bullshit nonprovable , untrue theories all you have is nothing. Get over it you are either part of the problem of part of the solution. Your theory that everybody was involved and everybody is scared to speak up is totally ridiculous and unbelievable. Move on get over it.

Its become similar to arguing faith (Friedrich Nietzsche, Faith: not wanting to know what is true.), regardless of the overwhelming evidence to appose the belief terrorist hijacked three separate plans with box cutters, maneuvered commercial airlines at high speed into precise targets "after failing out of flight school", passports falling from a burning building unscathed to the ground identifying the perpetrators some of whom are later found to be alive and well, then for the first time in history three buildings collapse at nearly free fall speed into their own footprints all due to structural damage cause by fire which scientifically can’t reach a high enough temperature to melt seal beams “which were coated with fire repellent”.

Nothing about the official story surrounding all the events leading up to and on 9/11 make sense, yet citizens of this country are supposed to believe the governments version, the same government which since has been caught in numerous lies and scandals.

It is our responsibility to ask questions and to force answers, when our elected officials fail to properly inform the population the population must stand up and take action. Like I said before this is exactly like the JFK assassination, the official story never made sense and the more people questioned the less sense it made.

We must remove the notion that our government has our best interest in mind, once we decide to logically question the official story we’ll begin to see things clearly. At one point I too was skeptical of the conspiracy theories, as soon as I decided to step away from blindly believing my government would never purposely cause its citizens harm it became rather evident something was being covered up.

I implore everyone who reads this to inform yourselves, get involved in your local state and national government, don’t allow your voice to be silenced, don’t allow our PUBLICALLY appointed officials to ignore the will of the public. This is not just with conspiracy theories I say this in regard to everything wrong with our nation, education, health care, the media, crime rates, murder rates, gun control laws, governmental fiscal responsibility, racism, poverty, unemployment, taxes, and anything else you can think of. We all must strive to improve our nation, no longer can we sit down expecting our officials to fix these things we must force them to address these issues.

Come on raz..it's time to wake up(no pun intended!!)and face the facts.They are undeniable.The official story is a lie.The 911 commission report is a cover-up for it.It was a white-wash directed by the white house.

I'm the one who is hard to convince?!?! I WAS TRYING TO CONVINCE YOU.

Gonna catch some zzzzzzzzzzzz's

Raz,I can see why rane56 said you are hard to convince..You are mistakenly taking time of impact to time of total collapse and considering that as the TIME they took to collapse.No,you have to FACTOR IN the BURN time into this equation and minus the FREEFALL TIME from that amount of minutes:if the buildings(a FEW floors)burnt for 30 minutes after impact which caused the bldgs to fall(official version which you accept)you have to consider an INCEPTION OF COLLAPSE to TOTAL COLLAPSE into the ground(officially as a result of fire) which has been scientifically proven to be 10 seconds.There was no resistance by the floors underneath AND the 45 column massive core.(Look at construction pictures of WTC 1 and 2 and you will see the core)It was like "knocking your feet off under you" and causing you to freefall on your butt..

My question to you therefore is this:How could jet fuel, aka kerosene, not only melt steel as claimed by the official story, and make two 110 storey collapse in a mere ten seconds, AND AT THE SAME TIME, cause the damage you saw take place - IN SUCH A MANNER AND OVER SUCH A WIDE AREA?
It was not a mere ten seconds that it took to make the buildings collapse. Here is the timeline:8:48 am first tower hit 9:03 2nd tower (south tower) was hit 9:59 South tower collapses
10:28 North tower collapse LATER that day after being damaged by the collapse at 5:20 pm tower 7 collapses and several surrounding building are in danger of the same.
I don't know if you were ever in the downtown Manhattan area but the buildings are not that widely spread apart. After the collapse you can literally see chunks of buildings missing which was clearly caused by the debris falling from the collapse. You just had to be there to see the surrounding damage to realize how it happened. Its been 6 years. Stories change, theories change and people start to believe the myths because they have been repeated so much and the truth is buried. I was not one of the privileged to see President Bush when he was at ground zero but I did see the American flag raised at the NYSE. It was unbelievable how everyone pulled together. How everybody was united. Its ashame what is happening and how what happened is distorted to fit agendas

"you would of seen the devastation of not only tower 7 , but Century 21 Dept.store , Millenium hotel , the bridge over Westside hwy. other buildings surrounding the Trade center"

Razio,I quote your lines so I can demonstrate why,by your own personal experience,that 911 was an inside job.Jet fuel is kerosene.If you have ever used kerosene you would discover that it is not as flammable as gas.You can safely light a match close an open container of the substance and it will not flare up as gas would.You can safely light a campfire with it or use a kerosene lamp.
My question to you therefore is this:How could jet fuel, aka kerosene, not only melt steel as claimed by the official story, and make two 110 storey collapse in a mere ten seconds, AND AT THE SAME TIME, cause the damage you saw take place - IN SUCH A MANNER AND OVER SUCH A WIDE AREA?

I was about 1 mile away when it did happen. I did not see the first plane hit but saw the 2nd plane hit. Building 7 did not fall immediately after. I was working in construction at the time as a dump truck drive (Teamsters 282) Civilians were not allowed to freely walk the area. A warning system was set up at the time because several buildings were indanger of collapse, when the alarm sounded everyone was to leave the area immediately because of a possible building collapse. I did work at gournd zero approximately 3 months after that. We were issued passes which enabled us to enter the area.

Raz,
No I wasn’t there, did you watch it fall? Or you were there hours after everything was over? I wasn't aware they let civilians walk around after it all went down maybe I’m wrong. You say you saw destruction of surrounding buildings after everything fell right? Well why didn't they fall like building 7 did? I'm assuming your attempting to say debris made building 7 structurally unsound and therefore it fell... into its own footprint?
As for the building being empty i believe the person being interviewed said a couple floors were unoccupied.
There were banking servers in one of the buildings and a few weeks before the attack the manager of those servers was told the building would be shut down for the weekend for some kind of maintance. Its possible everyone in the building wasn’t told there would be a shutdown. I could be wrong, like I said I’m not as informed as TT seems to be. That however doesn’t change the fact that the whole event still “smells fishy”.

Rane.........where you at the ground zero at any time after the attack??? I was there hours after the attack. The debris spread out for blocks away. It was totally different sight in person than what was shown on TV. If you were there you would of seen the devastation of not only tower 7 , but Century 21 Dept.store , Millenium hotel , the bridge over Westside hwy. other buildings surrounding the Trade center. I talked to people who work in the building and had offices in the building and there was no mysterious complete building shutdown over a weekend. And strange noises coming from empty parts of the building?? Which part of the building was empty? It has nothing to do with being un-patriotic ,naive or anything else. I'm sure we both have the countrys best interest at heart.

It should have said Architects & Engineers after the link i put in the last post, don't know why it didn't show up.

Rane 56 is correct about you Rizzo.You can't, or are unwilling to believe the unthinkable:that your own government would themselves perpetrate such a heinous act against its own citizens.This is exactly what they relied on - people would react in utter disbelief when allegations like that are made.After all,the GOOD GUYS reside in the west and don't do that sort of thing.
Cheney and Rice taking out insurance on the WTC?Utter nonsense. That latest rumor was likely started by the sites meant to bring legitimate ones into question-where was that dragged from? Fact is, Larry Silverstein was the leaseholder at the time of the event.He had what is called INSURABLE INTEREST in the property.He collected on an insurance claim and even tried to submit them as two separate claims-one for each tower.As for Giulani who was so sure the towers were going to collapse, let him tell the public as he is aspiring to be your new president,HOW HE KNEW THAT THEY WOULD collapse.How did bldg 7 collapse at 5.30 pm,over 7 hrs after WTC 1 and 2?

As for use of explosives again I have to re-iterate:On a provable,and scientific basis jet fuel would have largely dispersed with impact.Jet fuel CANNOT melt steel.You are not dealing with 10 storey bldgs.Look at 911 Myteries and you WILL SEE what is called SQUIBS emananting from various points in all 3 bldgs that fell.The squibs indicate the use of explosives in controlled demolitions.There were radio transmissions from one tower from a firefighter reporting that there were ISOLATED pockets of fire that could be knocked out.Absent the use of explosives and the outcome would have been completely different.The towers would have been still standing and much more lives saved.The neo-cons had it their way.Profits had to be made and wars had to start.
One day WE WILL KNOW THE TRUTH.

Raz,
Basically yes that’s what’s being said and although I think you may have misunderstood some of what TT was saying your getting the jist of it. I’m not as informed as TT is, and hopefully he’ll come back on and clear up any “mistakes” in your synopsis of the events leading up to and on 9/11. What I know for sure is Building 7 was hit with nothing, didn’t have jet fuel burning in it and when falling looks exactly like a demolition if you compare footage of the building 7 “collapse” and a controlled demolition. Once I saw this I started to question the entire official story of what happened and how it happened. The strange coincidences and weird reports of daily happenings in both towers leading up to that day make me wonder. The reports of heavy concentrations of dust covering air vents and loud construction like noises going on in the empty sections of the Towers. The complete building shut down “over a weekend” a few weeks before the attacks leaving the building completely unsecured and unmonitored, something people working there reported to be very unusual.

I guess the bottom line is yes there are holes in the conspiracy theories, but those theories were put out only because the official story has many problems.
Just like the “magic bullet” official story the government gave the people when JFK was assassinated. Think about it; the same way anyone questioning the JFK assassination was demonized ostracized and made to look insane, people who question what happened on 9/11 are made out to be ignorant, un-patriotic, stupid, and naïve. But everyone now knows JFK was assassinated with help from high-level government officials, and not by the lone gunman in the book depository. What will the future hold for the official story of 9/11? We may never know, but we certainly have a better chance of finding out when people stop blindly believing and start asking the hard questions.

There is a whole web site devoted to proving that the governments explanation of how the towers fell is scientifically incorrect, these are academic people architects and engineers, not just bloggers ranting. Check it out www.ae911truth.org & Engineers for 9/11 Truth!

If “official” stories didn’t have blacked out sections, and were researched by independent investigators instead of political appointed panels, people like TT and myself wouldn’t have so many issues.

Ok Let me try to get this straight , then I'll move on. The administration along with Rudy Giuliani were in on 9/11. Financed Bin Laden for the attacks. During the attacks, under the orders of President Bush, the Bin Laden family was flown out of the country for their safety. Building 7 was imploded by explosives planted before the attack. The pilots flying F-16s were misdirected over open water to avoid them shooting down the planes which would of prevented them from hitting their intended targets. The Secret Service were also in on it because they didn't rush the President out and allowed him 7 minutes before he departed. The administration also ordered the area outside the Pentagon be covered with sand to cover evidence. They also used fighter pilots to guide the planes into the targets because terrorist could not fly the planes themelsves. Then they got all the steel and iron from the trade center and transported it out of the country for fear of investigations that might expose what really happened. Now the new theory is Dick Cheney and Condi Rice had insurance taken out on the trade center just before 9/11 and cashed in on it. Like I've said you can believe what you believe , doesn't make you a bad person but seems to me that terrorist attempeted to do major damage the first time by planting a bomb, That didn't work out . They then spent the years and months ahead planning ,practicing and perfecting a terrorist attack. I don't think they planned for the buidings to collapse and cause the damage it did and they certainly didn't expect the response they got from President Bush. Good Luck to you

TT,
You’re a good man. I've been arguing with those two for months now. I've learned a couple things, you can't make them see if they won't open their eyes, and when you prove them wrong they ignore you and move onto another topic, liken it to guerrilla tactics, a hit and run if you will. They pick and choose the more improvable things and ignore the rest. You say look at WC7 demolition and they start arguing how hard it would be to cover up.

It’s the same constant state of denial most of this country has been lulled into with the lack of true journalism, the never ending string of reality shows, game shows, celebrity crotch shots, and the basic political incompetence seen daily. The country is sick; education is the one “possibly only” thing to heal that sickness.

Eisenhower in his farewell address: “The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist. We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties of democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing for the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals, so the security and liberty may prosper together.”

On the Pilotsfor911truth site look at this documentary in its' entirety:Pandora's Black Box - Chapter Two.In addition,do not miss looking at 911 Mysteries-demolitions on the universalseed.org site.There are many more credible websites.One main reason that people in the know would NOT come forward is simply because they are afraid for their safety and that of their families.The other is that money talks for those directly involved (ask your GOP frontrunner Giulani)Again,I have to repeat that thousands of people need not be involved in such a mass deception.As an example, in the pandoras box documentary they show that pilots flying F-16s were misdirected over open water-being LED TO BELIEVE there was an incoming threat from over the Atlantic seaboard!! Many in air traffic control believed that the four "hijacked" airplanes were those that were in a military exercise at the SAME TIME code-named "Vigilant Guardian".
As far as Al Queda and Bin Laden is concerned, do NOT know that the man and the group were funded by YOUR tax dollrs via the CIA? Do you not know that the Bin Laden and Bush family have ties going back to the days Bush SR was head of the CIA and likely even before that? Did you not know that Bin Ladens' brother and Bush SR are shareholders in the Carlyle Group - the seventh largest arms supplier to the US government?? How can you believe that the US, with its much vaunted superior technology cannot catch this mastermind after SIX LONG YEARS? Question is: Do they really want to catch him,assuming he is alive or does his continued existence serve a much larger purpose?
Though the story line in The Shooter with Mark Wahlberg is fictional,it is a movie which demonstrates how diabolical politicians can be.A good documentary on them and multinationals is: The Corporation.Yet another one to look at and open your eyes..

Went to look at those sites and only got through to www.globaloutlook.ca. And even that site , some of the points they raise are either unfounded or untrue in my opinion. We could be looking at the same picture and seeing 2 different objects. I just don't see a mass conspiracy. The dots just don't connect to have a conspiracy of that magnitude . I can't believe with all the public officals involved , no one would step forward with solid evidence that it was a conspiracy. It was a terrorist act , planned and acted out by Bin Laden and Al-Qaeda.

Here are the sites:Pilots for 911 truth.org.(see the heading and read the article:No boeing 757 hit the pentagon.) The others are:www.globaloutlook.ca and universalseed.org. In the latter you should look at 911 Mysteries-demolitions.Pay particullar attention to an "eyewitness" at the beginning who declares that :"the collapse was due to structural failure", and how clean and unfazed he was(not in a daze)about a devastating event perhaps a mere half hour before...and how did he come to that immediate conclusion on his own with NO investigation yet?
The point I made about Halliburton is not about its operations and capability.It is about its'connections to the Bush administration and its'ability to circumvent the tendering process.The fact that it was found to be overbilling for gas and supplies both in Iraq and Afghanistan.The fact that it continued to do business through subsidiaries in Iran-which will likey be now subject to another shock and awe campaign.Rosie was absolutely correct when she said she looks out of the US media for real news.I suppose that is because americans are the MOST entertained and LEAST informed people on this planet.Just look at how many game-prize shows and singing(Idol) and dancing(with the stars) contests,reality shows have mushroomed SINCE 911 and wars in the middle east.They do well to divert attention.Ever wonder where all that prize money comes from for most of them?

Was trying to check out...:Pilots for 911 truth\ truthseeker.com\Global Outlook no luck
Maybe another link? I do agree if a trillion dollars is missing we should know why and get to the facts. As far as 9/11 being this hue conspiracy.........we will probably never see eye to eye. Something like you yelling FIRE!!! and nobody seeing smoke.
The fact that Halliburton gets billions in contracts... If you look at their history they have been around decades. Actually since 1918 and incorporated in 1924. In 1948 it became a public company. It has operations in more than 100 countries around the world. Soon after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor, the company began to make gun-mount bearings for the U.S. Navy at its Duncan shops. Not many companies do what Halliburton does with the experience and knowledge of Halliburton. Almost every President used them. I know I know Cheney was VP I don't think they need Cheneys help to get contracts. They have been getting billions in contracts before Cheney and will continue after Cheney. I will give some 9/11 theories a look with an open mind Im sure there is logiacal explanations for them

Grayson keeps referring to Popular Mechanics as some kind of bible with THE final word on 9/11 truth.Did you know it is owned by the Hearst Corp?Check these out:Pilots for 911 truth\ truthseeker.com\Global Outlook- in this one you will see reference to:an excerpt dealing with Popular Mechanics assault on 911 by a Jim Hoffman.Pay close attention to what you see and read.There are more credible scientists on this side of the debate as well who are not paid for their views...
On the truthseeker site - just look at only one documentary:911 Mysteries-Demolitions and open both your eyes AND your mind.

To Rizzo:which public official will dare to come forward? Do you even realize the extent to which americans have lived in fear since 9/11? This fear is not from terrorists - but from their own government.They have been lied to,manipulated by Bush & Co and the CORPORATE media to believe everything THEY SAY-from terror attacks to reasons for invading Iraq and Afghanistan. True journalism is DEAD in America.Examples:how many people know even some of these events:The Taliban leaders visited Bush in the summer of 2000. Ever heard about the pipeline deal that went thru after they were ousted and GOVERNOR Karzai was installed? How many have truly investigated FAMILY ties between the Bushes and Bin Ladens that goes back 30 years? How many take issue with the fact that Halliburton gets billions in UNTENDERED contracts in Iraq,Afhanistan and elsewhere? How many have ever asked Rumsfeld about the missing 2.4 trillion missing from the DOD - which was announced on Sept 10,2001 and forgotten about? Why have they never questioned the number of appearances of a supposedly dead Osama Bin Laden over the years at opportune times for this admin? A week before elections in 2004 as one example.The most recent one featured him in "DEAD MAN TALKING"!!There were still images with a voice again confirmed by the CIA as his..ad nauseum.These are but a few examples.
There is one thing that is certain in my mind:simply that the only country capable of destroying the US is the US itself,and the seeds,unfortunately, were sown long before 9/11.The american "empire" will crumble as so many have done in the last few thousand years.Nothing lasts forever and the truth will not hide forever.

Do you realize how many public officals were involved?? Do you really believe no one would of come forward and testify to the fact that it was a planned attack? Do you really believe everybody in the conspiracy would keep quiet? It just seems far fetched to me to believe that. Then again everybody has their own theories. Im just a guy who doesn't know much anyway

Maybe we can have a decent debate without childish behavior...
The passenger and crew remains from American Airlines flight 77 were recovered at the Pentagon by team of more than 100 forensic specialists and others identified 184 of the 189 people who died in the Pentagon attack (125 from the Pentagon and 64 onboard American Airlines flight 77). All but one of the passengers onboard American Airlines flight 77 was positively identified as a match with DNA samples provided by the families of the crash victims, as reported in the Washington Post on November 21, 2001. This provides irrefutable proof that American Airlines flight 77, not a drone or other aircraft, crashed into the Pentagon on September 11. It wasn't done over night either. It was over an extensive period of time. If there was any real evidence ,any truth to the fact that President Bush planned knew or had any hand in 9/11 I would be the first to ask for his execution. There are plenty of people who hate the President to see that happen. The fact that there is no , as you put it, irrefutable direct and circumstantial evidence to bring many members of the Bush admin(past and present) to trial for treasonable and criminal acts against their own populace and others makes me believe President Bush had nothing to do with 9/11. Could we as a country have done more to prevent 9/11? Of course. That goes beyond Bush. Hind sight is 20/20 On 9/10 if you would of told ANYBODY that planes were going to hit the trade center and make the buildings collapse no one would of believed it.

Man, and I thought John Ehrenfeld was annoying!

TTSonny, I don't know how else to put this, so I will try again.

READ THE ARTICLE BY POPULAR MECHANICS, IT REFUTES ALL OF THE ULTRA LEFT WING CRAZY CONSPIRACY THEORIES. ACTUAL SCIENTISTS ARE QUOTED, NOT BLOGGERS!

Thank you.

Democrats, "Do as I say, not as I do."

This one to Glen:I was not going to dignify your response with one of my own - but what the heck -I am a combative kinda guy.You must have shit for brains like your commander-in-thief to come up with that.No matter what you,rizzo,grayson et al say there is enough irrefutable direct and circumstantial evidence to bring many members of the Bush admin(past and present) to trial for treasonable and criminal acts against their own populace and others..

To raziorizzo:How can there be human flesh when a missile hit the pentagon? Read it again.The question is based upon the OFFICIAL POSITION that a plane loaded with passengers hit it.The plane was obliterated in the "inferno" - but the human remains WERE INDENTIFIABLE. They claimed that 98 out of 99 bodies were..the inconsistency is being questioned.I was not saying a missile hit it AND that there were human remains...

There are questions of course:Despite what you present as "evidence" why has been no release of footage of a 757-both from inside and outside the pentagon?How can a failed cessna pilot fly a 757 with military precision,making a 270 degree turn at over 300 miles an hour? Why couldn't the fire chief point to where "vanishing" plane was? Why weren't fighter jets scrambled for almost 2 hours after the first reported hijackings? Why did Rumsfeld misspeak when commenting on damage to the pentagon as MISSILE damage? Or did he? There are many more...on the pentagon hit and WTC 1 and 2 and WTC 7.How come a man with ties to the CIA and the Bush family going back 30 years engineer such a feat operating from a cave??? 19 men with box cutters passed thru security and overpowered both crew and passengers? Best of all, look at footage of Shanksville where United 93 supposedly crashed and look at other crash sites over the years. Tell me if you see the remains of a jetliner that crashed when passengers took over!!

This one is for observer:Where do you get your (dis)information? Steel will melt at 2800 degrees. Jet fuel will only reach a max of about 1500.How then, did jet fuel melt steel? In addition,impacts on WTC 1 and 2 by would have spread fuel OUTWARD not DOWNWARD(look at footage of the events)Even if there was some downward flow, the floors below were STILL INTACT and would have restricted any flow.

Maybe you can explain this one to me...... a quote : ",human flesh(passengers) remained intact enough to be identified? How is that possible?"
First of all, if the pentagon was hit by an object other than a plane , why would there be passengers? Second of all , where is it reported that (hyman flesh)passengers remained intact BUT what do I know

Now....................what were you saying? Any questions?

I highly doubt that local firefighters and local police officers would be involved in any sort of a government cover up. Cops and firemen are just average Joes like you and me, who go home to the wife and kids, and just try to make a living and have a good life for their families (I have many friends in both professions). The men and women who pulled over a hundred people (dead and alive) out of that building would more likely than not have noticed somebody carrying over 60 bodies into the middle of the fire they were fighting. To say that the plane that hit the Pentagon was not filled with every single person who died in this terrorist attack (not counting the unfortunate people inside the building) is one thing and one thing only - ignorant.

Review the facts

Size of 757 matches the initial size of hole in the building - somewhere between 13 and 16 feet (757 is 13 feet wide/high)

Rims found in building match those of a 757

Small turbine engine outside is an APU

Same engine has been clearly stated to not match a Global Hawk engine

Blue seats from 757 laying on ground in photos

Part of "American" fuselage logo visible in more than 1 photo

Engine parts photographed inside match a Rolls-Royce RB211

Structural components photographed in wreckage match Boeing paint primer schemes

Large deisel generator in front of building hit by a large heavy object

Large deisel engine outside is spun towards the building - could not be result of bomb blast or missile explosion

Multiple eye witnesses say they saw an airliner

Multiple eye witnesses say they saw an airliner hit the Pentagon

60+ bodies, matching the passenger list and flight crew roster identified and returned to families from Pentagon wreckage

Some eyewitness accounts on what happened on 9/11 at the pentagon:
Eye Witness Testimony

Lets look at some eye witness testimony sticking only to people who saw a plane hit the building, and not look at people who saw an airliner, but didn't see an airplane hit the building because they looked away or were too far away (behind a hill, behind a building, etc) to see it actually hit the building.

"Aydan Kizildrgli, an English language student who is a native of Turkey, saw the jetliner bank slightly then strike a western wall of the huge five-sided building that is the headquarters of the nation's military. 'There was a big boom,' he said. 'Everybody was in shock. I turned around to the car behind me and yelled "Did you see that?" Nobody could believe it.'"
- "Bush Vows Retaliation for 'Evil Acts'." USA Today, 11 Sep 2001

"Frank Probst, an information management specialist for the Pentagon Renovation Program, left his office trailer near the Pentagon's south parking lot at 9:36 a.m. Sept. 11. Walking north beside Route 27, he suddenly saw a commercial airliner crest the hilltop Navy Annex. American Airlines Flight 77 reached him so fast and flew so low that Probst dropped to the ground, fearing he'd lose his head to its right engine."
- "A Defiant Recovery." The Retired Officer Magazine, January 2002

"Omar Campo, a Salvadorean, was cutting the grass on the other side of the road when the plane flew over his head. 'It was a passenger plane. I think an American Airways plane,' Mr Campo said. 'I was cutting the grass and it came in screaming over my head. I felt the impact. The whole ground shook and the whole area was full of fire. I could never imagine I would see anything like that here.'"
- "Pentagon Eyewitness Accounts." The Guardian, 12 Sep 2001

"Afework Hagos, a computer programmer, was on his way to work but stuck in a traffic jam near the Pentagon when the plane flew over. 'There was a huge screaming noise and I got out of the car as the plane came over. Everybody was running away in different directions. It was tilting its wings up and down like it was trying to balance. It hit some lampposts on the way in.'"
- "Pentagon Eyewitness Accounts." The Guardian, 12 Sep 2001

"Henry Ticknor, intern minister at the Unitarian Universalist Church of Arlington, Virginia, was driving to church that Tuesday morning when American Airlines Flight 77 came in fast and low over his car and struck the Pentagon. 'There was a puff of white smoke and then a huge billowing black cloud,' he said."
- "Hell on Earth." UU World, Jan/Feb 20

"We were the only people, we think, who saw it live," Dan Creed said. He and two colleagues from Oracle software were stopped in a car near the Naval Annex, next to the Pentagon, when they saw the plane dive down and level off. "It was no more than 30 feet off the ground, and it was screaming. It was just screaming. It was nothing more than a guided missile at that point," Creed said. "I can still see the plane. I can still see it right now. It's just the most frightening thing in the world, going full speed, going full throttle, its wheels up," - Ahwatukee Foothill News

Gary Bauer former Presidential candidate, "I looked at the woman sitting in the car next to me. She had this startled look on her face. We were all thinking the same thing. We looked out the front of our windows to try to see the plane, and it wasn�t until a few seconds later that we realized the jet was coming up behind us on that major highway. And it veered to the right into the Pentagon. The blast literally rocked all of our cars. It was an incredible moment." Massachusetts News

Sean Boger, Air Traffic Controller and Pentagon tower chief - "I just looked up and I saw the big nose and the wings of the aircraft coming right at us and I just watched it hit the building," Air Traffic Controller and Pentagon tower chief Sean Boger said. "It exploded. I fell to the ground and covered my head. I could actually hear the metal going through the building." dcmilitary.com November 16, 2001

"The only way you could tell that an aircraft was inside was that we saw pieces of the nose gear. The devastation was horrific. It was obvious that some of the victims we found had no time to react. The distance the firefighters had to travel down corridors to reach the fires was a problem. With only a good 25 minutes of air in their SCBA bottles, to save air they left off their face pieces as they walked and took in a lot of smoke," Captain Defina said. Captain Defina was the shift commander [of an aircraft rescue firefighters crew.] NFPA Journal November 1, 2001

"How is it possible for a plane with a wing span of 125 ft to go through a 20 ft hole and be swallowed up?"

Well, let's see. Assume you are an average sized person, perhaps 10" thick. We shoot you out of a cannon at 500 mph. Down range is John Ehrenfeld bent over. I suspect you will fly right through Ehrendfeld's one inch asshole and make a bigger hole on the other side. Because Ehrenfeld is so dense there is nothing left of you after impacting at that speed. So, it didn't happen. I don't SEE any carbon in the air so it can't be causing global warming either.

Hey TT
do you understnad what happens at 2,700 degrees F
Which is the temp jet fuel burns at?
What the hell is with you Rosie nuts?

And on 9-10-01 the moon was slightly to the eclpitic of Mars
Cut us all a break!